Logic Holes In GOT | The Boneyard

Logic Holes In GOT

Joined
Aug 27, 2011
Messages
895
Reaction Score
2,379
First let me say that I am a huge fan of GOT. The first three volumes are great; the fourth is pretty good, and the fifth is a real mess. The holes I am going to point out are common to fantasy cycles in general, but given the quality of the writing and the depth of the universe construction; I hoped for better.

Technological Deep Freeze: Without going into all the anomalies technology seems to have frozen in the late middle ages for many hundreds/thousands of years. There is a sense of loss of technology, for instance no one really knows how to replicate the Great Wall. Whether it is 700 or 800 feet or even higher; no one knows how it was constructed in actual terms. It is beyond belief in terms or normal human experience, the Great Wall of China is like a Legos model in comparison. Yet, relatively modern marvels like the statue straddling the
harbor of Braavos (obviously based on the Colossus of Rhodes) are widely found.

The series features several important sea based powers and a major trade all across the Inland Sea. Despite this
we seem to have stopped with the compass, no sextants, so astrolabes, apparently no proper map making, no
observation of the heavens. Why in so many fantasy sagas we have a historical back story of thousands of years,
but no societal development?

We have banking in the free cities, but apparently none in Westeros. The Iron Bank of Braavos is in saga terms
a relative child. Still it is half a millennium of practicing finance. Is Venice the model for Bravos? If so why
in Braavos and the other Free Cities don't we see a Renaissance? I hadn't really thought about it but, there doesn't seem to be any painting, sculpture, but no real painting. There seem to be illustrations in books,
but no painting. In a late medieval world; there should be tapestries. Why is this left out; is it a conscious
omission, or is it just a blip. It is of interest to me because in the Renaissance art and science have a connection.

Let's go back to the Free Cities and trade for a minute. Where is a Henry the Navigator; where are the sun sightings, where are the rutters (voyage logs with detailed descriptions of coastlines), where, where, where,
are the changes brought about by commerce? Banking is a relatively late development, in 600 years no one
developed a letter of credit?

More to come, but I need to take a break.
 

SubbaBub

Your stupidity is ruining my country.
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
32,093
Reaction Score
24,542
I think you are asking too much. Besides, if winters are that debilitating and can last for a decade, I would think survival is put above art.

As for the time line. My sense is that there were multiple ages, the time of the first men and the crossing of the Andels. Before than you have a lot of elemental species, the COTF, the valarians, the dragons and the walkers are examples of creatures and peoples once abundant but now scarce or nearly extinct. Men as we consider them appear to have been late to the party, built the wall and then spent the next 1000 years fighting over what resources were needed to survive the winter. There also doesn't appear to be too many of them. There are only two real cities in Westeros, KL, and Dorne. The rest are smaller towns and outposts. Hardly place for master works of art, think early 18th century americas.

The free cities appear to be the only real "civilization" the rest is rather dank.

I would put the earth equivalent time line closer to the dark ages than the Renaissance, if that is important, but I think the creation of a non-earth world relieves the author of those comparisons.
 
Joined
Feb 4, 2012
Messages
15,245
Reaction Score
16,166
I always thought that the Orcs and Uruk-Hai in Lord of the Rings looked like the Aliens, so Frodo should have had these

f3akjn.jpg
 
Joined
Oct 15, 2013
Messages
34
Reaction Score
26
You state those are plot holes, but I say those have to fall in to "suspension of disbelief." Like what kind of biological creature could breathe fire? What kind of organic matter would be able to house flames without the animal dying? Even if it was a spark and chemical reaction situation, you're still looking at a dragon burning it's mouth or nostrils with fire.

How does Greyscale transfer by touch? There are no illnesses in the current world that transfer automatically from skin to skin contact (yes viruses and such, but you still need a break in your skin or your eyes/nostrils for that to infect you).

We're talking the same language here. But it's a fantasy novel. Unfortunately GRRM didn't have a team of scientists and biologists to ensure that his writing was scientifically acurate, and he didn't have historians and civilizational researchers to be his editors when it came to development of society.
 

intlzncster

i fart in your general direction
Joined
Aug 24, 2011
Messages
29,094
Reaction Score
60,516
First let me say that I am a huge fan of GOT. The first three volumes are great; the fourth is pretty good, and the fifth is a real mess. The holes I am going to point out are common to fantasy cycles in general, but given the quality of the writing and the depth of the universe construction; I hoped for better.

Technological Deep Freeze: Without going into all the anomalies technology seems to have frozen in the late middle ages for many hundreds/thousands of years. There is a sense of loss of technology, for instance no one really knows how to replicate the Great Wall. Whether it is 700 or 800 feet or even higher; no one knows how it was constructed in actual terms. It is beyond belief in terms or normal human experience, the Great Wall of China is like a Legos model in comparison. Yet, relatively modern marvels like the statue straddling the
harbor of Braavos (obviously based on the Colossus of Rhodes) are widely found.

The series features several important sea based powers and a major trade all across the Inland Sea. Despite this
we seem to have stopped with the compass, no sextants, so astrolabes, apparently no proper map making, no
observation of the heavens. Why in so many fantasy sagas we have a historical back story of thousands of years,
but no societal development?

We have banking in the free cities, but apparently none in Westeros. The Iron Bank of Braavos is in saga terms
a relative child. Still it is half a millennium of practicing finance. Is Venice the model for Bravos? If so why
in Braavos and the other Free Cities don't we see a Renaissance? I hadn't really thought about it but, there doesn't seem to be any painting, sculpture, but no real painting. There seem to be illustrations in books,
but no painting. In a late medieval world; there should be tapestries. Why is this left out; is it a conscious
omission, or is it just a blip. It is of interest to me because in the Renaissance art and science have a connection.

Let's go back to the Free Cities and trade for a minute. Where is a Henry the Navigator; where are the sun sightings, where are the rutters (voyage logs with detailed descriptions of coastlines), where, where, where,
are the changes brought about by commerce? Banking is a relatively late development, in 600 years no one
developed a letter of credit?

More to come, but I need to take a break.

First, in general terms, I would say that GRRM has to make a sand in the line somewhere, in terms of detail in world building. You could spend five 1,000 page books simply building a detailed and accurate world, without ever getting to story telling.

As far as art is concerned, I think this is merely GRRM inadvertently devoting more time to other things. Perhaps, given his portly physique, he avoided discussions of art, in order to focus an abnormally extensive amount of page space into his own particular areas of interest: descriptions of food and various feasts. A strong argument could be made for GRRM spending less time on food and more to things like art and culture.

With respect to the construction of The Wall, my understanding was that it was done by some combination of men (Starks), and things like children of the forest, giants and what have you. Maybe magic was involved as well, given that that sort of thing was more prevalent 8,000 years ago. The number of 'peoples'/creatures was greater at that time as well. Over time, the details of these ages have been lost to that of Legend.

It seems that civilization/diversity of 'creatures' declined significantly through time, possibly leaving a quasi dark ages and stagnation in its wake. Perhaps this retar ded scientific development and progress? Certainly, greater civilizations existed (Valeria et al) but disappeared through time for various reasons.

Would an alternate world necessarily progress at the same pace as our own? For instance, they do have different minerals and natural resources, both in terms of type and amounts, and that is only one variable. Furthermore, it's not hard to imagine societies collapsing, close to extinction, with much knowledge being lost (for a variety of reasons). This has happened on earth (see Mayans or ancient Chinese), and is certainly quite possible in our future. What will Earth look like 8,000 years from now? I would hypothesize that not all the rates and cycles in development and progress are symmetric in alternate worlds. Too many different variables.

I agree on mapping and to a lesser extent banking. Don't they have letters of credit for countries/families though? But there is no mention for individuals. Maybe this detail was ommitted, but exists in some actuality for small businesses and things of that nature.

I'd think people would be far more knowledgeable about countries across the seas. Outside of the Maesters, education, writing and science doesn't seem to be a valued commodities at all, but for a few nobles sons.
 
Last edited:

nelsonmuntz

Point Center
Joined
Aug 27, 2011
Messages
43,953
Reaction Score
32,129
First let me say that I am a huge fan of GOT. The first three volumes are great; the fourth is pretty good, and the fifth is a real mess. The holes I am going to point out are common to fantasy cycles in general, but given the quality of the writing and the depth of the universe construction; I hoped for better.

Technological Deep Freeze: Without going into all the anomalies technology seems to have frozen in the late middle ages for many hundreds/thousands of years. There is a sense of loss of technology, for instance no one really knows how to replicate the Great Wall. Whether it is 700 or 800 feet or even higher; no one knows how it was constructed in actual terms. It is beyond belief in terms or normal human experience, the Great Wall of China is like a Legos model in comparison. Yet, relatively modern marvels like the statue straddling the
harbor of Braavos (obviously based on the Colossus of Rhodes) are widely found.

The series features several important sea based powers and a major trade all across the Inland Sea. Despite this
we seem to have stopped with the compass, no sextants, so astrolabes, apparently no proper map making, no
observation of the heavens. Why in so many fantasy sagas we have a historical back story of thousands of years,
but no societal development?

We have banking in the free cities, but apparently none in Westeros. The Iron Bank of Braavos is in saga terms
a relative child. Still it is half a millennium of practicing finance. Is Venice the model for Bravos? If so why
in Braavos and the other Free Cities don't we see a Renaissance? I hadn't really thought about it but, there doesn't seem to be any painting, sculpture, but no real painting. There seem to be illustrations in books,
but no painting. In a late medieval world; there should be tapestries. Why is this left out; is it a conscious
omission, or is it just a blip. It is of interest to me because in the Renaissance art and science have a connection.

Let's go back to the Free Cities and trade for a minute. Where is a Henry the Navigator; where are the sun sightings, where are the rutters (voyage logs with detailed descriptions of coastlines), where, where, where,
are the changes brought about by commerce? Banking is a relatively late development, in 600 years no one
developed a letter of credit?

More to come, but I need to take a break.

A rough comparison of the world of ASOIAF is the early, early renaissance.

If you look at the arc of actual human history, we were fairly primitive well into the 16th century. Prior to the urbanization of western Europe, which really only happened in northwest Germany (which today would including the low countries) and Italy, Europe we a very backward place. You could argue that GRRM's story is most unrealistic in that the societies of thousands of years prior were advanced enough to document contemporaneous events. Outside of a handful of ancient civilizations that survived to current times, humanity has very imperfect records of what has happened with its ancestors. Even modern advanced societies like Holland and Germany effectively start their history around 500 AD. The only records that predate that are the Roman documentation of the primitive people that lived in those regions. Eastern Europe is a black hole of history, as is the western hemisphere and Africa.

Much like the real world of the middle ages, the eastern continent in ASOIAF has pockets that are more advanced than Westeros. Much like the real world, what goes on in the far east (China) is only available via rumor and third hand traveler reports, since no one wants to send caravans across the Dothraki (Mongol) lands.

I do not recall ships in the book getting far out of sight of land. Did I miss something? Even with that said, the Polynesians sailed the Pacific with unknown navigational tools, and almost certainly reached the Pacific Coast of the Western Hemisphere, and then likely returned. Venice's and Genoa's merchants rapidly accumulated wealth that would have made most tech billionaires jealous solely on their ability to bring goods from one end of the Mediterranean to the other.

The Free Cities are basically Italy of the early renaissance. Valyria is a combination of Atlantis, Troy, Ancient Greece and Rome. As far as western Europe was concerned, the world went backwards developmentally with the fall of Rome. Remember Jorah's and Tyrion's conversation going through Valyria. Various forms of banking have existed since the Phoenicians, but as evidenced in ASOIAF, the world is getting significantly more financially sophisticated and it is also getting smaller.

The dynamics between the 7 kingdoms and the Riverlands are logically consistent with how those regions would interact. the kingdoms are an amalgamation of both the actual western Europe and England during the War of the Roses.

North = Scotland with some characteristics of Russia
Westerlands = France with characteristics of England
Reach = Burgundian France with Characteristics of England
Dorne = Spain
Riverlands = Germany
Eyrie = Switzerland/Austria
Kings Landing = London
Stormlands = Wales/Ireland
Iron Islands = Vikings

The biggest issue I have is that the Iron Islands should be on the other side of Westeros. If the entire basis of the Iron Islands society is raiding, they do not have a lot of good targets. The Riverlands are not bad, but the North western shores are basically uninhabited, and the Westerlands and the Reach are strong and will kick their ass. Furthermore, there is nothing to the west for them to raid. As far as we have seen, the Sunset Sea is endless. How do these people eat and survive in time of peace? Theon should have returned to an Iron Islands in desperate, grinding poverty and near starvation, not one that was preparing to attack the North.
 

August_West

Universal remote, put it down on docking station.
Joined
Aug 29, 2011
Messages
51,029
Reaction Score
87,248
Not for nothing but there are plenty of logic holes in true world history

Someone want to explain:

The construction of Stonehenge, Giza pyramid or
Puma punku in a way that doesn't make you sound like a sucker for BS?

A fantasy book series gets a pass in my world when the actual world we live in is full of logic holes.
 

intlzncster

i fart in your general direction
Joined
Aug 24, 2011
Messages
29,094
Reaction Score
60,516
I do not recall ships in the book getting far out of sight of land. Did I miss something?

I was under the assumption this happened all the time. Victarion is in the process of sailing all the way from Pyke to Meereen. Euron sailed from Pyke all the way to Asshai (supposedly). The Ssummer Islands take weeks to get to no? And slavers sailed all over the place.

The biggest issue I have is that the Iron Islands should be on the other side of Westeros. If the entire basis of the Iron Islands society is raiding, they do not have a lot of good targets. The Riverlands are not bad, but the North western shores are basically uninhabited, and the Westerlands and the Reach are strong and will kick their ass. Furthermore, there is nothing to the west for them to raid. As far as we have seen, the Sunset Sea is endless. How do these people eat and survive in time of peace? Theon should have returned to an Iron Islands in desperate, grinding poverty and near starvation, not one that was preparing to attack the North.

Well, they did raid the Lannisters' lands quite often, no? That would have been very profitable. I thought they even sailed all the way around to Dorne.

And let's be honest, the Iron Born didn't exactly live high on the hog. They were hard individuals for a reason.
 

nelsonmuntz

Point Center
Joined
Aug 27, 2011
Messages
43,953
Reaction Score
32,129
I was under the assumption this happened all the time. Victarion is in the process of sailing all the way from Pyke to Meereen. Euron sailed from Pyke all the way to Asshai (supposedly). The Ssummer Islands take weeks to get to no? And slavers sailed all over the place.



Well, they did raid the Lannisters' lands quite often, no? That would have been very profitable. I thought they even sailed all the way around to Dorne.

And let's be honest, the Iron Born didn't exactly live high on the hog. They were hard individuals for a reason.


Every map in the book, if drawn to scale, would make sailing fairly achievable with even modest navigational tools. The Vikings crossed from Norway all the way to North America in the 10th century. The Iron Islanders would have no trouble crossing small seas and then hugging the edge of Essos. To be fair to GRRM, Victarion's fleet took a beating on the trip to Meereen.

From the end of Balon's Rebellion to the beginning of the War of the Five Kings is 10 years or so. With no where to raid, no visible resources to trade, nor the desire to if they wanted, little supply of timber, and a philosophy against agriculture, I would say that the Iron Islands would be an uninhabited wasteland about 5 years before the books start. Even the real vikings were actually farmers fleeing starvation in Scandanavia. I think we need to assume that some of the Iron Islanders must be closet farmers and others must engage in actual, legitimate trading.
 

Online statistics

Members online
562
Guests online
3,451
Total visitors
4,013

Forum statistics

Threads
155,762
Messages
4,030,789
Members
9,863
Latest member
leepaul


Top Bottom