Kim vs. Holly vs. Muffet vs. Joanne, etc., etc.

[Sonny44]

Ha, somebody resurrected my old post. But no one suggested I should have put C-Viv in there.

 

[UcMiami]

BaylorProf - interesting take, thanks for sharing and it does surprise me somewhat as she seems a bit of a lifer to me. Hard to walk away from the excitement of sport no matter what you specific job.

And I have always enjoyed Kim - a few comments put me off, but I could say the same about any coach including Geno - they are not perfect and constantly talking off the cuff in public is not a recipe for perfection.

Frese has always rubbed me wrong, but I have actually been more impressed with her teams the last few years - does she have a new rising star assistant or is she doing it herself?

Walz is a really good game coach - one of the best

And yes Holly has done a really good job this year and her team has finally stepped up with the loss of Izzy.

What Dawn has done in building Temple and now SC is impressive - not sure of her coaching at this point.

Kim - really good coach, but maybe one step down from the greats

Muffet and Tara - great coaches

Sherri - has trouble recruiting but seems to generally outperform the talent she has.

 

[DobbsRover2]

Dawn has also had a full roster. Holly has had injuries and a transfer.

Sorry, no coach is really ever able to use transfers or injuries as an excuse for coming up short. Geno would just say you shuffle the deck a bit, forge on, and if you lose you lose. Again, Holly has started with a supposed far greater wealth of talent from all those high recruits that have gone to UTenn, so if some dropped off the list of active players, she should still be doing better than Dawn.

 

[vtcwbuff]

If you dislike Mulkey's sideline antics, how did you feel about Auriemma? Not the mellow guy we see these days but the spit flying, profanity spewing total freakout guy of 20 years ago.

Personally, I found him to be just as entertaining as the game.

 

[j66kicker]

No reason to try to change anyone's perception/dislike of Kim's antics. They come from deep in side a woman who still wants to put on a uniform and play and her antics are the way that mental/physical energy is vented.

However, though it might not be obvious to those who only see the highlight clips when she goes over the edge, this team of no-names (at least last year when they were a support casst for Sims, has now actually begun to mellow Kim. She's STILL over the edge, but not nearly as much, and her in-game relationship with her players is completely changing for the better because she seeing a bunch of over-achievers who are willing to work as hard as she does.

Probably that's just age. Her son is a soph baseballer at LSU and many of us believe as soon as he's done Kim will sail off into a sunset somewhere and find another challenge. Her bball fire will burn until she separates herself with a third NC (to rise above the other four schools that have 2).

Kim does NOT aspire to be a career Geno I am convinced. She knows Geno and previous Pat are models that are one-time deals. She's payed too well, her kids are gone (daughter getting married this summer) and I don't see Kim, still a young coach by many standards, making a career of it trying to be the sequel to La Tech, Tennessee, UCONN, and then Baylor.

In fact, her personna is such that if she could do so and be fair to her team/recruits, I think she has the makeup to walk away ANY time she gets fed up with having to be "made up" for the cameras, putting up with critics of her Louisiana crude in your face way of talking into a mike, and all the politics that go on around D1 athletics.

She's NOT a candidate for television commentary. She IS a candidate for buying a beach house in Florida where she takes her yearly 10 week vacation in late summer during recruiting lull and presseason prep.

If/when she is fortunate to make a final game, win or lose, if the loss is fair and legit, I don't expect to see her stick with it too long. And if she should win that final game, if her team is senior laden, I'd bet that's all it would take for her to let it all go.

Too many words. She IS, (and she brings it on herself with her antics) one of the most misunderstood coaches in the nation. She has cared for her players (inside the NCAA limits) in ways that have never been publicized, and deep in side is a caring, great lady. She just doesn't show it externally.

And no, I'm just a prof fan; I'm not her PR agent.

Ok but what I want to know is when is Nike going to create animal print unis for the Baylor women?? (with silver lame shoes?)

 

[AnotherVolFan]

Sorry, no coach is really ever able to use transfers or injuries as an excuse for coming up short. Geno would just say you shuffle the deck a bit, forge on, and if you lose you lose. Again, Holly has started with a supposed far greater wealth of talent from all those high recruits that have gone to UTenn, so if some dropped off the list of active players, she should still be doing better than Dawn.

No need to apologize because Holly hasn't made an excuse out of it....she's done exactly what you said and forged on. Dawn has more healthy legit players to play with point, blank, period. All this talk of Holly inheriting great All-Americans is odd to me cause I think the general consensus of a lot of people is that you can't rely on high school ratings to know how a player is going to perform in college. The only proven All-American we had on the roster this year was Harrison. Youve already lost your back up center at the beginning of the year, you lose one of your best defenders and rebounders in Jones....I mean idk how else to put it, those are MAJOR blows to ANY team. Losing almost everything you have in the post and Dawn still has one of the toughest front lines in the country with Welch, Ibiam, Coates, and Wilson and you're saying Holly should still be doing better ....maybe im missing something here....realistically speaking.

 

[AnotherVolFan]

Ok but what I want to know is when is Nike going to create animal print unis for the Baylor women?? (with silver lame shoes?)

Lmaooooo I really really hope they leave the ladies' uniforms alone!

 

[Nuyoika]

TFintheMix- - - I love the players at MD but I CAN NOT STAND BRENDA FRESE! I hold onto my wallet whenever she's on the screen, she's so slimey! Some things that have set my negative opinion of BF:
1. When she got the MN Head Coach job (with Lindsay Whalen & Janelle McCarville) she said"this is her dream job, she's thrilled to be at MN!" Then within a year and a 1/2 she went to MD and at her presser she said: "This is the dream job I've been after!"
2. She's rumored to have called, Langhorne & Harper, two high 2005 Geno recruits, a couple of days before signing day and next thing you know they commit to MD! Geno was pissed and made a comment a couple days later about "some coaches calling kids and telling tall tales on other programs!" That's why Geno eventually scheduled MD to kick her butt! The last time was last year that UCONN won big without KML & Tuck and BF said at post game presser if Geno were to lose one more HS AA he'll know what the rest of the coaches are having to really coach!
3. When BF & MD won National Title in 2006 she had Jeff Walz as her head Asst. and the joke was he was the power behind the throne! Soon after the season he got the L'ville job where he's shined!
4. She loves her microphone time pregame, during game, and postgame!

If Mr.Burns (The Simpsons) had a daughter. I'd be her. For whatever reason that's all I can think when I see her.

 

[AnotherVolFan]

If Mr.Burns (The Simpsons) had a daughter. I'd be her. For whatever reason that's all I can think when I see her.

That is SOOOO wrong! Lol lmaooooo

 

[Nuyoika]

That is SOOOO wrong! Lol lmaooooo

I don't like/no-like her. I'm indifferent but man, the resemblance.

 

[stwainfan]

Sorry, no coach is really ever able to use transfers or injuries as an excuse for coming up short. Geno would just say you shuffle the deck a bit, forge on, and if you lose you lose. Again, Holly has started with a supposed far greater wealth of talent from all those high recruits that have gone to UTenn, so if some dropped off the list of active players, she should still be doing better than Dawn.

I was just pointing out the fact. How would Dawn do if she didn't have Mitchell? Yes Tennessee has talent. Other than the players who are not playing. Having a teams top players does make a difference.

 

[JoePgh]

What really bugs me about the Holly issue is that Dawn has gotten so much attention this year and has the exact same conference record as Holly. They both share the title. AND Holly did this with a VERY depleted injured team playing the top schedule in WCBB. Very impressive to me.

Holly has won an SEC title every year that she has been a head coach. I think her short resume keeps her from getting the respect of others. I get it, but the numbers don't lie. The real test is the NCAA though, where Dawn hasn't done anything better.

I would be skeptical of this viewpoint for two reasons (while acknowledging that it has some validity):

1. Dawn Staley (IMHO) deservedly gets more praise and appreciation than Holly because she started seven or eight years ago with a South Carolina WBB program that was in the pits, with no talent to speak of, and built it to the point where it is now talent-competitive with the best teams in the country. Holly, on the other hand, inherited a team with top talent, and to her credit has continued to recruit top talent, but that is not the same as starting at the bottom of the hill (with nothing but your name as player and Temple coach) as Dawn did.
2. While Tennessee has indeed played probably the toughest schedule in the country, their talent (at least until Harrison went down) was probably sufficient to win just about every game. I think if Dawn (or certainly Geno) had been given the Tennessee roster and the Tennessee schedule, she would have had zero to 2 losses instead of 5. I don't think that Tennessee has ever had the success that its recruiting achievements should have produced (certainly not since the Parker era), and I don't see Holly changing that.

 

[DobbsRover2]

I was just pointing out the fact. How would Dawn do if she didn't have Mitchell? Yes Tennessee has talent. Other than the players who are not playing. Having a teams top players does make a difference.

Not sure how well Staley would have done without the relatively low rated Mitchell or how much better Holly would have done if the highly rated UTenn recruits had developed as would be expected of those premier ratings. Point is, to complain that a coach gets more attention than your team's coach because they did develop better than the UTenn prized players is just plain dumb, or to say that because your team has lost a bunch of players to transfers and injuries that Staley's record should somehow be marked down. Doesn't work that way in real life though sometimes in fantasy worlds I guess those may be the rules. USCar was rated ahead of UTenn in every power rating I've seen even before the Harrison injury, and using it as an excuse now for any lack of performance is pointless. Every year it's been something, and at some point you just have to say, "It's not Pat."

 

[asuwish]

Tennessee is playing much, much better, sometimes almost seems mildly cohesive.
When Izzy went down, the team didn't fold, the underachieving seniors really stepped up
and finally (after 3+ years) started playing up to their ability.

You've have to credit Holly for these advances; we certainly have blamed her for the team's failures…
i don't think that they will get to the final-four…certainly not if they get put in our regional
But improvement in all aspects of their game is noted.

TN is not in our region and only has Gonzaga and MD to get to the final four. Then the nation will see Uconn vs TN. They still have 6 McDonald's AA (as many as Uconn). I think they beat MD.

 

[mudcat]

TN is not in our region and only has Gonzaga and MD to get to the final four. Then the nation will see Uconn vs TN. They still have 6 McDonald's AA (as many as Uconn). I think they beat MD.

Based on matchups, I see TN having a hard time getting by Gonzaga - that game is a tossup for me. And even if they beat Gonzaga, I think MD has too much balance and depth for them. So I don't see them in the Final Four.
Just as a side note, I'm really impressed with the young coaches at TX, TCU and Albany. I think those three are really going to make names for themselves.

 

[msf22b]

They have a real chance, methinks

 

[AnotherVolFan]

I just don't see Tenn getting past MD....their guard play is better than ours, and I'm a firm believer in good guard play winning big games.

 

[RSHERMVIKES]

I think Gonzaga beats TN and if the Gonzaga bus doesn't show up, MD beats TN! TN's days of making the Final Four has gone the route of Old Dominion, Auburn, LA Tech, SoCal, VA, GA, Immaculata, LSU, "remember when we used to be great!"

 

[Buzzyboy]

Great post.. However, Muffet's Championship was no fluke in my view; she simply out coached the UCONN staff. UCONN's best players were playing in that game - another whole conversation. As a matter of fact, when the talent level of the players are close (post Diggins), the ND staff has held its own against UCONN.

You are dismissing two All-Americans by your remark. Having Svet and Shea off the court surely was beneficial to Notre Dame overcoming a big half time lead. Does anyone with a rational mind not believe that two outstanding AND SEASONED players like Ralph and Abrosimova would have had the wherewithal and abilities to prevent the kind of collapse that UConn had in the second half that got Notre Dame back in the game and ultimately won the game for them???? UConn's best players were NOT playing in that game!!!!!!!!

 

[Buzzyboy]

If you dislike Mulkey's sideline antics, how did you feel about Auriemma? Not the mellow guy we see these days but the spit flying, profanity spewing total freakout guy of 20 years ago.

Personally, I found him to be just as entertaining as the game.

I think Geno was out of control at times years ago from time to time but not nearly as frequently even then as Kim Mulkey is continually even to this day. I don't find Mulkey is entertaining in any way or any fashion. JMHO!

 

[Buzzyboy]

I would be skeptical of this viewpoint for two reasons (while acknowledging that it has some validity):

1. Dawn Staley (IMHO) deservedly gets more praise and appreciation than Holly because she started seven or eight years ago with a South Carolina WBB program that was in the pits, with no talent to speak of, and built it to the point where it is now talent-competitive with the best teams in the country. Holly, on the other hand, inherited a team with top talent, and to her credit has continued to recruit top talent, but that is not the same as starting at the bottom of the hill (with nothing but your name as player and Temple coach) as Dawn did.
2. While Tennessee has indeed played probably the toughest schedule in the country, their talent (at least until Harrison went down) was probably sufficient to win just about every game. I think if Dawn (or certainly Geno) had been given the Tennessee roster and the Tennessee schedule, she would have had zero to 2 losses instead of 5. I don't think that Tennessee has ever had the success that its recruiting achievements should have produced (certainly not since the Parker era), and I don't see Holly changing that.

I'm not sure why you throw Dawn into this discussion. I'm not minimizing that she's a good coach but she isn't even close to either Muffet or Geno. I think that Dawn would have likely done NO BETTER than Holly with Tennessee's lineup while I'm totally confident Geno and Muffett would have far exceeded Holly's performance. Geno and Muffett are ELITE coaches and neither Holly nor Dawn are, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Bayareahusky]

You are dismissing two All-Americans by your remark. Having Svet and Shea off the court surely was beneficial to Notre Dame overcoming a big half time lead. Does anyone with a rational mind not believe that two outstanding AND SEASONED players like Ralph and Abrosimova would have had the wherewithal and abilities to prevent the kind of collapse that UConn had in the second half that got Notre Dame back in the game and ultimately won the game for them???? UConn's best players were NOT playing in that game!!!!!!!!

I remember this game so well like it was yesterday..... Ya we did have Sveta and Shea out of commission which obviously is a big difference maker..... Then to compound that however, Diana tried to take control and went something like 1 for 15...... I remember Geno at one point figuratively giving in and saying that it just was not our time to shine.

 

[Bayareahusky]

I'm not sure why you throw Dawn into this discussion. I'm not minimizing that she's a good coach but she isn't even close to either Muffet or Geno. I think that Dawn would have likely done NO BETTER than Holly with Tennessee's lineup while I'm totally confident Geno and Muffett would have far exceeded Holly's performance. Geno and Muffett are ELITE coaches and neither Holly nor Dawn are, as far as I'm concerned.

Yes, I am in agreement with you that Geno and Muffet are a cut above the rest .... there is no question of that..... and as for Dawn, well I think she is doing OK ,... and she deserves credit for building SC to what it has become.....but we need a larger sample size from the program's performance as it stands now..... i.e. as a nouveau power in WCBB, how do you fare vs. the Baylors, the Tennessees, the Notre Dames, etc.... give it a year or two more and i will feel much more confident about assessing Dawn's coaching prowess.....

And since there is so much chatter about Holly, I will again throw my 2 cents in..... I just think she is substandard as a coach, leader, motivator and tactician. I was pretty certain in my opinion, but wanted to give her the benefit of the doubt..... My mind was resolute after witnessing the career of Meighan Simmons..... who ran the team on the floor from the guard spot.... always was going solo, seldom getting teammates involved.... short on assists, etc.... I thought, why didn't Holly sit her down immediately, and put her back in only when she was willing to be part of the team, not to mention lead in that thought process..... My Tennessee friends told me, politely i might add, that I had to understand that Meighan wouldn't be like that if others on the team were willing to shoot..... they just wanted to leave that chore to Meighan.... and I thought..... well isn't that the coach's responsibility to get the rest of the team in line, so that you are functioning as a team and all rowing in the same direction.?

Holly was given a program filled with talent. And she has done a good job of continuing Tennessee's recruiting success. But I do not see her doing anything with the talent she has. Understandably she has had injury issues but not the whole 4 years she has been head coach..... the year filling in for Pat and 3 years with the title...... she has admitted that the team doesn't always listen to her..... it was deep into this season when she started to put any focus on the offensive part of coaching at all, by her own admission..... she sounds like Coach P at Duke at the pressers with the recurring quote "we're going to have to learn from this"..... I try and think of one game in her time that her team beat another team that was better than her..... I do not think it has ever happened......though of course she has lost to teams she shouldn't have lost to.... Chattanooga etc....

And I would add this..... Lady Vol Nation has continually put forth the fact that transition is not easy with the circumstances of Pat's disease. Agreed!!! But as Pat's right hand person for 30 years, and having been head of the team for the last four years, I would have expected much more..... my extreme skepticism and expectation level is apparently matched by many Tennessee fans who fully expect to lose - as a #2 seed - to #11 seed Gonzaga this weekend..... (just basing this on viewing the comments from the message boards) Many at Tennessee who were Holly skeptics turned around when the team co-won the regular season SEC title..... they congratulate her for that, and even congratulate her for getting a berth in the NCAAs and leading the LVs to the Sweet 16 the past 3 years or however long it has been.....

I am still a Holly skeptic. Though not ready to write her off, I see how she is coddled to a certain degree (I go crazy when I read the Bill Guthridge comparisons, and how difficult it is to follow a legend).... The bar is set very low for Tennessee and Holly specifically, and my worry would be, if I was a Tennessee fan, is that these small victories of Holly's (co-winner of SEC, NCAA berths, 29-5 winning record, etc) buy her goodwill and extra time at the helm, which is good if you are a SC fan...... Tennessee needs a kick ass coach who is good at the x's and o's.... and demands respect from the players..... I would like to think that if Geno left tomorrow and Chris D took over with essentially the same resume as Holly's (30 yrs as top assistant etc), that in a short matter of time she would have the total respect and buy-in of the team, be teaching both offense and defense with help of her staff, and leading and motivating - not bowing in deference to what your players want to do.

Circling back to the start, there is no question, Muffet and Geno are certainly the best of the best.

 

[baylorprof]

Kim's eccentric wardrobe is a mystery. Commonly know around Waco that she never shops for herself. Hands her credit card to a few trusted friends and tells them to bring her a rack full of "edgy" styles. She picks what she likes from the outfits the friends have chosen and the rest go back.

It's not a Hollywood kind of paid wardrobist. Just Kim saying she doesn't have time to shop and so instead of her going shopping, her friends bring shopping to her. But still, even the local fans are amused at some of the stuff she picks of the "pre-selected" rack brought to her home by friends.

When at public functions her wardrobe is basically single color, straight cut modest.

As if any of you would have interest in those tidbits. But heck, it's 4 am and I can't sleep so your board gets some of my need to fill time.

 

[ladybears4eva]

Would versus against each other count as a way to separate the coaches?

Muff has only beat mulk once.
Mulk is tied with geno.
Mulk beat Patt more...

I think mulk is an elite coach. Who else can say that?

Tied with Tara. Head to head