Katie Lou is lousy on defense....Wrong..!!

[BroadwayVa]

Kib, KLS has been on national/international stage or more than a minute now. She is a 5 time USA Basketball Gold Medalist. Thanks to Youtube and streaming there is a significant body of her work to evaluate and project how she would perform in a UCONN uniform. The evaluations & projections as always are subjective so I don't believe it is so much "internet legend" or the need of some to deem every UCONN recruit near perfect and unworthy or critique. This is a valid difference of opinions. The last perfect player played in the one game I happen to miss and I'm pretty sure Geno was not coaching, but Kim Mulkey might have been.

I like you said-----this is a valid difference of opinion. Wouldn't it be nice if everyone remembered that??????

 

[BroadwayVa]

I think most Freshman come to Uconn in need of improving their defense up to Uconn standards.
They will all learn on the fly. It takes time and hard work to improve and learn the proper
defensive techniques. Uconn teaches good defense and the Freshman will learn the Uconn way.
Just give them some time.

Nothing to disagree with here. For the 3 freshmen these are terrifically trying days. Studies, classes, practices, exhib games, over active and needy fans--at UConn this is multiplied by 100. Expectation for them is beyond belief. I loved basketball playing I doubt I personally could have handled all that at 18.

 

[BroadwayVa]

View attachment 11010

I keep hearing what a bad a defender Katie Lou Samuelson is for UConn. So I re-watched the 1st half of the Lubbock game to confirm what a defensive liability she is...
I watched just her, not the ball. Here's what I found out:

1. Katie started and played 8 minutes total in the first quarter. She started and played 6 minutes in the 2nd quarter. 14 minutes total.
2. She guarded #23, occasionally #24 and #14. Once she switched and picked up #2.
3. The players she was guarding took a combined 3 shots, in 14 minutes.
4. With her long arms, KLS denies the ball to her player quite well. I counted 7 touches of the ball.
5. Of the 3 shots taken against her, 2 missed and she blocked the 3rd.
6. The players she guarded scored 0 points in the 1st half. Zero, zilch, nada.
7. KLS was fouled twice getting defensive rebounds and had a steal.

I'm NOT saying Katie Lou is Kelly Faris re-incarnated... But until she truly sucks on defense, can we stop saying she is a lousy defender?

Go KLS..!!
Go Huskies..!!

P.S. - Geno is NOT down on her. He just feels she can get better and better. Like most Freshman. “And she is still nowhere near where we need her to be, on the defensive end or finding the place that we want her to play at. She has a long way to go. But compared to most freshmen that I see coming out of high school, she is ahead of them.”

\

So she can't shoot or defend--she pretty!!!

 

[Roundball fan]

KLS is a freshmen and her is game is going to evolve. I believe as she grows stronger and is drilled day in and day out, she will be a great UConn player. I still remember the struggles Stewie went through her freshmen year. Didn't play much against Baylor that year. Stewie was not a quitter and I don't think KLS will quit when she is pushed by Geno. Yes I am a fan of hers. So lets wait and see what the next four years bring us crazy fans.

 

[cohenzone]

David - thank you for the research - I watched the game and came away quite impressed with Lou's defense having seen a number of posts referring to her defense as being the liability that would keep her on the bench at Uconn. I then came back to the board and saw numerous posts again addressing her poor defense, lack of rebounding, etc. which made me doubt my own eyes. One thing you failed to mention is that in that first half she committed no fouls herself while drawing two, and as you say, getting her fingers on the ball seven times. Her length is an asset that allows her to play a little off her man which compensates for less than lightening first defensive step.

Coco - not sure which opponents went over her back, but Lubbock is not actually height challenged as their numerous blocks in the game attest. The whole idea of rebounding is to box out so an opponent has to go through you to get a rebound, something that Lou did twice - and a foul and the ball is a better result than a simple rebound in general. I would also not consider Lou as having been 'chased down' on her layup attempt - they were pretty much parallel heading down the floor and it looked at first sight as if she had been fouled.

No one is saying a single game answers questions about players - but a number of people are making pronouncements about the same players based on the same. This is just an attempt to challenge, based on detailed analysis, the preconceptions of others.

Good post. I watched the game again. I have no idea why anyone can conclude she can't defend., at least if they are using that on game as evidence. Will there be one on one match ups that will be tough for her? No doubt, as there are for most players. And she is a frosh, and sure to have adjustments to make. She looks fundamentally sound and will probably defend well enough. UConn plays great team defense. We have some players who stand out as full court defenders like Faris and Jefferson, but they wouldn't stand out if more players had that level of defensive skill. KLS is coming in as a scorer. If she fits in with our team defensive schemes, that's fine. If she doesn't score, then there's a real issue.

 

[diggerfoot]

Like DiN I was intrigued first by conflicting reports on KLS's defense. On one side were those confirming the "scouting report" on KLs, on the other side was UcMiami, whom I've come to respect greatly as a person who lets observations guide his opinions, rather than the other way around. I proceeded to watch the game with a similar objective as DiN, but different method. I looked for indicators of playing team defense. I don't have an agenda with this. I think both Butler and Williams should be starters before either Collier or Samuelson. As for Collier v Samuelson, I can only go by what I am now observing and I need far more observations. With that caveat, there are five points to make in KLS's "defense."

1. KLS switched on screens decisively. I was surprised when BV cited confusion on this specifically, I'll allow for an occasional slip-up, but I'll counter that KLS usually both hedged and fought through screens without hesitation, suggesting she was "in communication" with others in the context of team defense. KLS comes out well comparing her to past freshman in regards to this.

2. When beaten, KLS yet managed to steer her man towards the baseline. I respect Coco's knowledge of the game on a par with UcMiami, and I suspect maybe I misunderstood him in his criticism of huskyd, but the point of perimeter defense is NOT to force the weak hand, unless going down the center. Rather it is to force the baseline, where if you have good team defense you end up with a double team, yet with restrictive vision preventing outlet passes near the basket. KLS got "beat" the right way which, once again, could not be said of all our freshman in the past.

3. KLS was not the only defender that got "beat." Player #3, in particular, beat both KLS and Williams on separate occasions. It was obvious that Nurse defended better than Williams, Collier and KLS; the distinction between those three was not so glaringly obvious (um, I do think Williams had a much better game than the other two, just not in terms of positional defense). It's a little beside the point to use slip-ups as an indictment when others have them as well.

4. While Lubbock Christian is not Notre Dame it is the only set of observations from which to draw. The observations of UcM, myself and a few others did not fit into conventional thinking. To then "move the goalpost" by extrapolating to other potential games, while a common tactic when one feels one's position being undermined by actual observation, does not make for a legitimate argument. Hey! I'll take Williams over KLS. I'll even take an unseen Butler over KLS, at least for a starter. I may take Collier over KLS as more valuable to this team with enough future observations. But I'll also suggest that some of the reactions on here were that of letting opinions influence observations, rather than vice-versa.

5. Collier may prove to be more valuable to the team than KLS in the long run; I have no clue as to this. Yet the suggestion that the coaching staff can get the offense they need from Collier easier than they can get the defense they need from KLS is far from intuitive. KLS is 6'3" with a quick release and accuracy from the perimeter. You can't teach that, and there are only a handful of women in basketball with those combined abilities.

In summary, I don't think either freshman matched their hype, neither KLS on offense nor Collier on defense, but that should be expected. However, I thought both fit very well as early freshman into the concepts of both team offense and team defense, which bodes well for the future.

 

[UcMiami]

Digger - very nice observations and well cataloged. I think the simplest observation was for a somewhat scrappy effort by the team, I did not think anyone stood out as not belonging on the defensive end (or on the offensive end) - mistakes were made, but the freshman blended in with the returners seamlessly. And while neither of the freshman shot well, the shots they were taking were the right ones in the flow of the offense - not too early and not forced.
I think Uconn got a very special class this year with the first sightings of two and the reports on the third coming out of practice. I think we could well have something similar to 3/4 of the TASS class - missing the Sue part which is arriving next year. The skills are a little different, but of similar height and skill - missing perhaps the strength of Tamika, but adding the three point ability of Lou as compensation.

 

[Kibitzer]

The above two posts -- by Digger and UcM -- qualify for the "Beyond Category" standard. (Long-time 'Yarders understand. I'm sure that our bright newbies can figure it out. )

 

[JS]

The above two posts -- by Digger and UcM -- qualify for the "Beyond Category" standard. (Long-time 'Yarders understand. I'm sure that our bright newbies can figure it out. )

I agree. Was going to say something myself.

And not just the last two posts. An excellent thread.

 

[Kaizen]

I think this class is almost equal to the TASS class.
We have 4 starters return, 3 super Freshmen, plus Gabby, Butler, Chong, Ekmark ( all can be a starter).

I also think Kia Nurse is the most under-rated player in NCAAW. (She may not be in the ESPN top 25 list
http://espn.go.com/espnw/news-commentary/slideshow/14022827/1/counting-best-25-players-nation)

 

[Kibitzer]

I think this class is potentially almost equal to the TASS class.
We have 4 starters return, 3 super Freshmen, plus Gabby, Butler, Chong, Ekmark ( all can be a starter).
I also think Kia Nurse is the most under-rated player in NCAAW.

Almost completely agree, but suggest one little edit. As of now, only Lou and Pheese have played -- one practice game. Butler and Boykin watched.

Remember that that earlier fabulous class started as the TASSK force. The "K" was for Keirsten Walters, the designated point guard -- not Sue. Injuries prevented "K" from ever realizing her vast potential, so Geno had to make do with that soccer player from NY instead.

We all know how that turned out.

 

[CocoHusky]

Like DiN I was intrigued first by conflicting reports on KLS's defense. On one side were those confirming the "scouting report" on KLs, on the other side was UcMiami, whom I've come to respect greatly as a person who lets observations guide his opinions, rather than the other way around. I proceeded to watch the game with a similar objective as DiN, but different method. I looked for indicators of playing team defense. I don't have an agenda with this. I think both Butler and Williams should be starters before either Collier or Samuelson. As for Collier v Samuelson, I can only go by what I am now observing and I need far more observations. With that caveat, there are five points to make in KLS's "defense."

1. KLS switched on screens decisively. I was surprised when BV cited confusion on this specifically, I'll allow for an occasional slip-up, but I'll counter that KLS usually both hedged and fought through screens without hesitation, suggesting she was "in communication" with others in the context of team defense. KLS comes out well comparing her to past freshman in regards to this.

2. When beaten, KLS yet managed to steer her man towards the baseline. I respect Coco's knowledge of the game on a par with UcMiami, and I suspect maybe I misunderstood him in his criticism of huskyd, but the point of perimeter defense is NOT to force the weak hand, unless going down the center. Rather it is to force the baseline, where if you have good team defense you end up with a double team, yet with restrictive vision preventing outlet passes near the basket. KLS got "beat" the right way which, once again, could not be said of all our freshman in the past.

3. KLS was not the only defender that got "beat." Player #3, in particular, beat both KLS and Williams on separate occasions. It was obvious that Nurse defended better than Williams, Collier and KLS; the distinction between those three was not so glaringly obvious (um, I do think Williams had a much better game than the other two, just not in terms of positional defense). It's a little beside the point to use slip-ups as an indictment when others have them as well.

4. While Lubbock Christian is not Notre Dame it is the only set of observations from which to draw. The observations of UcM, myself and a few others did not fit into conventional thinking. To then "move the goalpost" by extrapolating to other potential games, while a common tactic when one feels one's position being undermined by actual observation, does not make for a legitimate argument. Hey! I'll take Williams over KLS. I'll even take an unseen Butler over KLS, at least for a starter. I may take Collier over KLS as more valuable to this team with enough future observations. But I'll also suggest that some of the reactions on here were that of letting opinions influence observations, rather than vice-versa.

5. Collier may prove to be more valuable to the team than KLS in the long run; I have no clue as to this. Yet the suggestion that the coaching staff can get the offense they need from Collier easier than they can get the defense they need from KLS is far from intuitive. KLS is 6'3" with a quick release and accuracy from the perimeter. You can't teach that, and there are only a handful of women in basketball with those combined abilities.

In summary, I don't think either freshman matched their hype, neither KLS on offense nor Collier on defense, but that should be expected. However, I thought both fit very well as early freshman into the concepts of both team offense and team defense, which bodes well for the future.

Digger awesome observations, as usual. Just a slight clarification on your point #2. Perimeter defense (above the foul line) and at the arc is slightly different than defense played below the foul line where which is where the baseline comes into play. Above the foul line the first objective is always to force the dribbler to use the weaker hand. MoJeff and Kara Lawson did a great job demonstrating this in a segment before the NC game last year. Defending below the foul line you have less time ,because for the most part you are talking about 1 at most 2 dribbles before the player is at the basket. Because the defender has less time you still force to weak hand if possible but you also force to the baseline and use the baseline as an additional defender. KLS is using the right defensive techniques, as you said "she got beat the right way". She is decisive, and I guarantee you she is putting in max effort. This is a physical limitation, a 6'3" long striding player can use perfect technique, be as decisive as humanly possible, and not achieve the same result as say a 6'4" player blessed with world class athleticism. I just don't understand the hyper sensitivity that comes with critique of ANY UCONN player's limitations. Last year it was Saniya and now KLS. This is perimeter defense we are talking about, it is an important aspect but not singular. If we were talking about the ability to put points on the board KLS may be the leader of the pack. UCONN has a standard for both perimeter defense and putting points on the board so this is great dialogue as far as I'm concerned.

 

[CocoHusky]

I agree. Was going to say something myself.

And not just the last two posts. An excellent thread.

I agree "An excellent thread." and said so in my last post. I don't care very much for the use of the word "suck" in the title however and said so in my first post.

 

[Kibitzer]

Wow, just Wow! Digger and Coco transforming a message board into a veritable bb clinic. Jeez, I thought that this "D" stuff began and ended with the admonitions to "Keep your hands up!" and "Stay in front of her!"

DOH!

 

[Hoopdreams]

View attachment 11010

I keep hearing what a bad a defender Katie Lou Samuelson is for UConn. So I re-watched the 1st half of the Lubbock game to confirm what a defensive liability she is...
I watched just her, not the ball. Here's what I found out:

1. Katie started and played 8 minutes total in the first quarter. She started and played 6 minutes in the 2nd quarter. 14 minutes total.
2. She guarded #23, occasionally #24 and #14. Once she switched and picked up #2.
3. The players she was guarding took a combined 3 shots, in 14 minutes.
4. With her long arms, KLS denies the ball to her player quite well. I counted 7 touches of the ball.
5. Of the 3 shots taken against her, 2 missed and she blocked the 3rd.
6. The players she guarded scored 0 points in the 1st half. Zero, zilch, nada.
7. KLS was fouled twice getting defensive rebounds and had a steal.

I'm NOT saying Katie Lou is Kelly Faris re-incarnated... But until she truly sucks on defense, can we stop saying she is a lousy defender?

Go KLS..!!
Go Huskies..!!

P.S. - Geno is NOT down on her. He just feels she can get better and better. Like most Freshman. “And she is still nowhere near where we need her to be, on the defensive end or finding the place that we want her to play at. She has a long way to go. But compared to most freshmen that I see coming out of high school, she is ahead of them.”

Let's see if he's consistent, because he sure did bury Chong for being a defensive liability. Wait until you guys get a whiff at the D that Espinosa Hunter plays. She's also a very poor on the ball defender.

 

[Kibitzer]

Let's see if he's consistent, because he sure did bury Chong for being a defensive liability. Wait until you guys get a whiff at the D that Espinosa Hunter plays. She's also a very poor on the ball defender.

It wasn't so much a burial of Chong as a confirmation of Nurse.

 

[UcMiami]

Coco - I am going to disagree with you a little on your beyond the foul line defensive description. The idea in basketball defense is to always keep the offensive player moving away from the center of the court like with chess, or football, or pretty much any game. An attack/strength in the middle is the most dangerous because from the middle you can attack either side equally. (It is why on fast breaks you want the ball in the center of the court if possible.) So a right handed player if they are right of the center line at the three point arc is still going to be defended to force them to go further right even though it is their stronger hand, and conversely if they are left they will be forced further left. It is only when they are within a few feet of the centerline where the hedging may be based more on their dominant hand, but is more usually just straight up.

Most good offensive players are fairly ambidextrous and can hurt a defense going either direction - the few that are so single sided as to lead a defender to only sit on one hand are the exceptions. And the other exception is when there is a specific help defender on one side or the other - when the offense is threatening a screen, or a teammate is cheating down/over against an unbalanced offense.

There was a video of a Geno practice exercise which was all about keeping the offensive player on a diagonal line toward either sideline preventing them from claiming the center. It was specific to a person bringing the ball up the court, but is equally relevant to half court defense. The sidelines as well as the baseline become additional 'defenders'.

On the hyper-sensitivity - I agree there is some of that, but I think most of us are simply challenging what we think are preconceived as opposed to observed criticisms. In the limited time of one game I did not see much to separate the defense played by any of the Uconn players - they all got beat, they all committed fouls they shouldn't have, and they all bottled up their players at various times, and they all performed in unison most of the game. But the comments after the game were full or praise for some players and critical of really only one in terms of defense. Personally, Kia committing three fouls and Collier committing two against a skills and athletically challenged opponent are more of a concern to me than any mistakes on defense Lou made. I think Kia's were a result of a transition curve from international competition back to NCAA competition so hopefully that gets corrected, and Collier like Lou is adjusting to the speed of the college game so I am cutting her some slack as well. But fouls with the new rules are an important issue and one that I think probably caught the coaches eye more than perhaps the fans.

 

[CocoHusky]

UC,
I appreciate your POV very much. Your point "Most good offensive players are fairly ambidextrous and can hurt a defense going either direction" is well taken and I agree that keeping the ball handler away from the center is another well established defensive principle. I suppose we may have been taught differently but I was taught that If a right handed defender is beating you going towards the right side of the floor I was still taught to push up on the right hand because eventually he has to come back to the left hand, change direction, and have to finish with the weaker hand at the basket. This is what makes a well executed cross over such a devastating move-the defender has basically sold out to stop the ball handler in one direction. This is also the reason there is always an adjustment to left-handed PGs when a game starts.
You say the ability to hurt the defense going in either direction is what defines a good offensive player. I'm think that is what define elite not good. The vast majority of HS PGs (Boys & Girls) graduate without knowing how to use the off hand equally. Not to pick on anyone but Kadijah Sessions starting PG for South Carolina, the next time that young lady drives left in a meaningful way will be the first. This is the kind of minutia that I notice when I am watching a game like how UCONN and ND basically dared her to drive left by pressing up on her right hand.

 

[UcMiami]

UC,
I appreciate your POV very much. Your point "Most good offensive players are fairly ambidextrous and can hurt a defense going either direction" is well taken and I agree that keeping the ball handler away from the center is another well established defensive principle. I suppose we may have been taught differently but I was taught that If a right handed defender is beating you going towards the right side of the floor I was still taught to push up on the right hand because eventually he has to come back to the left hand, change direction, and have to finish with the weaker hand at the basket. This is what makes a well executed cross over such a devastating move-the defender has basically sold out to stop the ball handler in one direction. This is also the reason there is always an adjustment to left-handed PGs when a game starts.
You say the ability to hurt the defense going in either direction is what defines a good offensive player. I'm think that is what define elite not good. The vast majority of HS PGs (Boys & Girls) graduate without knowing how to use the off hand equally. Not to pick on anyone but Kadijah Sessions starting PG for South Carolina, the next time that young lady drives left in a meaningful way will be the first. This is the kind of minutia that I notice when I am watching a game like how UCONN and ND basically dared her to drive left by pressing up on her right hand.

Like your point about Sessions and it highlights another aspect of Uconn's (and ND's) superior coaching - the scouting reports and the ability to make adjustments in both offensive and defensive schemes for different opponents. And the ability of individual players to adjust their defense specifically as the offensive players are changed.
I remember watching the TN Maryland regional NCAA game a few years ago and the lack of preparation and inability of TN to guard Thomas even when they decided to double team when she really had a very limited and predictable set of offensive moves was pretty shocking. It appeared no one had ever watched film of her.

 

[CocoHusky]

Like your point about Sessions and it highlights another aspect of Uconn's (and ND's) superior coaching - the scouting reports and the ability to make adjustments in both offensive and defensive schemes for different opponents. And the ability of individual players to adjust their defense specifically as the offensive players are changed.
I remember watching the TN Maryland regional NCAA game a few years ago and the lack of preparation and inability of TN to guard Thomas even when they decided to double team when she really had a very limited and predictable set of offensive moves was pretty shocking. It appeared no one had ever watched film of her.

Excellent example. Contrast that with a MD vs UCONN in Nov. 2013 UCONN is Down Morgan Tuck and KML and Dolson is in foul trouble. What turned that game was excellent preparation. The scouting report stated that Thomas who was a good rebounder like to power dribble the ball up the court after a rebound. Enter Mo Jefferson who pick Thomas' pocket 3 times so cleanly at the start of the power dribble that Thomas is still wondering what happened. Turned the entire game around.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

Excellent example. Contrast that with a MD vs UCONN in Nov. 2013 UCONN is Down Morgan Tuck and KML and Dolson is in foul trouble. What turned that game was excellent preparation. The scouting report stated that Thomas who was a good rebounder like to power dribble the ball up the court after a rebound. Enter Mo Jefferson who pick Thomas' pocket 3 times so cleanly at the start of the power dribble that Thomas is still wondering what happened. Turned the entire game around.

You two are going to decimate participation if you insist on talking dispassionately and analytically about WCBB!