I'm Rooting for the Irish

[AZHuskiePop]

The Best Fit geographicly for ND is the Big Ten .
You don't have to be a logistics expert to figure that out.

The Big East was a cultural fit because the northeast happens to contain the biggest consentration of Catholics.
The ACC lacks both the culture and geography
I suspect ND's historic cultural identity will have to change to fit in.
Those things happen when you sell your soul.

 

[Irishfan]

The Best Fit geographicly for ND is the Big Ten .
You don't have to be a logistics expert to figure that out.

The Big East was a cultural fit because the northeast happens to contain the biggest consentration of Catholics.
The ACC lacks both the culture and geography
I suspect ND's historic cultural identity will have to change to fit in.
Those things happen when you sell your soul.

Yes, the Big Ten was the best geographical fit for ND. In fact, it was the geographical center of the conference. With the 12 teams, there were 6 teams north of ND and 6 teams south of ND. There were 6 teams east of ND and 6 teams west of ND. But being in the middle of the big ten with the increases in conference scheduling was not a good place for ND. it would cut the recruiting opportunities in California, Texas and the southeast.

So yes, in one sense we may have sold our soul (not sure how), but in another sense, we passed on the most money for the long term benefit of the football program.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

Yes, the Big Ten was the best geographical fit for ND. In fact, it was the geographical center of the conference. With the 12 teams, there were 6 teams north of ND and 6 teams south of ND. There were 6 teams east of ND and 6 teams west of ND. But being in the middle of the big ten with the increases in conference scheduling was not a good place for ND. it would cut the recruiting opportunities in California, Texas and the southeast.

So yes, in one sense we may have sold our soul (not sure how), but in another sense, we passed on the most money for the long term benefit of the football program.

If the XII was the conference to lose out at the next realignment/consolidation step, would ND reconsider it's association with the ACC should Texas (and possibly Oklahoma) join the B1G?

 

[clmssun]

If the XII was the conference to lose out at the next realignment/consolidation step, would ND reconsider it's association with the ACC should Texas (and possibly Oklahoma) join the B1G?

I'd say the B1G is the last place Texas will end up. Yes, the B1G academics are strong, and UTx's academics are strong, but that is one heck of geographical and cultural divide. Indeed, I think chances of Texas joining SEC. Pac, or ACC are all greater than B1G. (Just because Pac fell through once does not mean write it off forever. I'd argue the state of Texas is definitely big enough for a second SEC school. While ACC also has geographical problems, I'd argue that the cultures and/or settings of FSU, GIT, UNC, UVA would be better fits for UTx than any B1G school except Nebraska who left XII to get away from UTx.)

 

[Irishfan]

If the XII was the conference to lose out at the next realignment/consolidation step, would ND reconsider it's association with the ACC should Texas (and possibly Oklahoma) join the B1G?

I doubt this restructured conference would allow ND to enter in all sports except football. I still believe that ND's primary goal is to stay independent. Their secondary goal is to maintain a presence in the areas that will help their recruiting efforts. The current arrangement with the ACC accomplishes both of these goals much better than joining the Big Ten would. Even a revampted Big Ten. Again, while many won't believe it, the money is a secondary consideration.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

I'd say the B1G is the last place Texas will end up. Yes, the B1G academics are strong, and UTx's academics are strong, but that is one heck of geographical and cultural divide. Indeed, I think chances of Texas joining SEC. Pac, or ACC are all greater than B1G. (Just because Pac fell through once does not mean write it off forever. I'd argue the state of Texas is definitely big enough for a second SEC school. While ACC also has geographical problems, I'd argue that the cultures and/or settings of FSU, GIT, UNC, UVA would be better fits for UTx than any B1G school except Nebraska who left XII to get away from UTx.)

I agree that the PAC would be the most likely destination for Texas should the XII break-up because 1) Texas would still have a lot of clout in the PAC as only Southern Call approaches its the market as Ohio St/Michigan would counter balance Texas in the B1G and 2) the PAC has the space and lower academic standards to also add Texas Tech and other potential little brothers (OK St, Kansas St) should it be politically necessary to do so.

In addition, I can see Texas A&M trying to block U Texas getting into the SEC like U Florida has done with FSU while arguing that in time, A&M will be bigger than U Texas anyway. not to mention, that Alabama is one of the few schools that can equal Texas' clout in the market and the Tide would be backed by Auburn, Florida, Georgia, LSU, etc.

I could see the SEC looking at Baylor as a second Texas entry as the Bears have proven success athletically in many sports recently and have put serious money into it's athletic facilities. Baylor, while private and on the small side (14K students), does have a $1 billion endowment, has a medical school and other grad programs, is highly ranked academically (#74 in US news) with AAU membership as a stated goal. Would that make them a B1G target, too?

I disagree with the similarity to the ACC though. Texas is a state flagship university with a football first mentality and solid academics. Not a single school in the ACC matches. The ACC state flagships are basketball first (Maryland, UVA, UNC) while only a handful of secondary state schools are football first (Clemson, FSU, and V Tech) do share a football first mentality; but, I see Texas having a hard time. Plus, the ACC has a number of distinctly Yankee schools in BC and Syracuse and small, elite basketball first schools in Duke and Wake. The only interest that Texas may have is if they can get a sweathart deal like ND has.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

I doubt this restructured conference would allow ND to enter in all sports except football. I still believe that ND's primary goal is to stay independent. Their secondary goal is to maintain a presence in the areas that will help their recruiting efforts. The current arrangement with the ACC accomplishes both of these goals much better than joining the Big Ten would. Even a revamped Big Ten. Again, while many won't believe it, the money is a secondary consideration.

Concur that ND wants to stay independent in football and many of the main donors want such as well. That said, if the new system makes it very difficult for an independent to get into the playoffs, ND may not have a choice., which is what I think this alliance with the ACC is about - training for the ND faithful on what will likely happen down the road. Thus, going back to my prior question, if the XII was to die out, which I think is more likely than the ACC dying, would the addition of Texas (and Oklahoma) be enough of a lure to drawn in ND. With a conference stretching from Boston via UConn (fingers and toes crossed) through NYC, Philly, DC, across to Chicago and then south to Dallas and Houston, has to be of interest to ND.

 

[TerryD]

If the XII was the conference to lose out at the next realignment/consolidation step, would ND reconsider it's association with the ACC should Texas (and possibly Oklahoma) join the B1G?

I really don't think so, for a number of reasons.

The Big Ten is a no go for ND. I think Jim Delany finally understands this.

 

[CoastAtlantic]

Texas could end up with a similar deal as ND. The stipulation would be that some B XII schools go with them as full members. I could see WV, TCU and Baylor. Then Oklahoma, Kansas, Iowa State and Connecticut join the B1G. It works for getting three divisions that work geographically.

BC, SU, Pitt, WV, UL, UC
VT, Virginia, Duke, Wake, UNC, NC State
FSU, UM, GT, Clemson, Baylor, TCU

OU, KU, Neb, ISU, NU, IL
MN, WI, Purdue, Michigan State, Iowa, Indiana
MI, Ohio State, Penn State, CT, MD, Rutgers

That's the only way I see the B1G accepting UConn. But suspect they'd go the ultraconservative route and just take two. IMO, going to 18 each works best for both conferences.

 

[Ldandy]

Texas could end up with a similar deal as ND. The stipulation would be that some B XII schools go with them as full members. I could see WV, TCU and Baylor. Then Oklahoma, Kansas, Iowa State and Connecticut join the B1G. It works for getting three divisions that work geographically.

BC, SU, Pitt, WV, UL, UC
VT, Virginia, Duke, Wake, UNC, NC State
FSU, UM, GT, Clemson, Baylor, TCU

OU, KU, Neb, ISU, NU, IL
MN, WI, Purdue, Michigan State, Iowa, Indiana
MI, Ohio State, Penn State, CT, MD, Rutgers

That's the only way I see the B1G accepting UConn. But suspect they'd go the ultraconservative route and just take two. IMO, going to 18 each works best for both conferences.

1)Iowa State is never getting an invite to The B1g. The BTN and the law of diminishing returns all but guarantee it, in fact there are better odds that East Carolina and ODU will accept invitations to The ACC first.

2)Regardless of whatever deal The ACC might offer, it is beyond ridiculous to imagine Texas schlepping their Olympic Teams up and down the Eastern Seaboard. ND has to recruit nationally, UT doesn't. They would likely go independent in football ala BYU and stash their other sports in whatever remains of The Big 12/MWC/AAC Merger.

3)How exactly does 18 work best for conferences? Unless you are planning on two divisions of nine schools each, which you aren't, it is a giant pain in the ass for scheduling.

 

[Seaa Blue]

I really don't think so, for a number of reasons.
The Big Ten is a no go for ND. I think Jim Delany finally understands this.

 

[Seaa Blue]

I'd say the B1G is the last place Texas will end up. Yes, the B1G academics are strong, and UTx's academics are strong, but that is one heck of geographical and cultural divide.

From what I've heard, Austin is a cultural divide from... Texas.

 

[AZHuskiePop]

Yes, the Big Ten was the best geographical fit for ND. In fact, it was the geographical center of the conference. With the 12 teams, there were 6 teams north of ND and 6 teams south of ND. There were 6 teams east of ND and 6 teams west of ND. But being in the middle of the big ten with the increases in conference scheduling was not a good place for ND. it would cut the recruiting opportunities in California, Texas and the southeast.

So yes, in one sense we may have sold our soul (not sure how), but in another sense, we passed on the most money for the long term benefit of the football program.

I'd say the B1G is the last place Texas will end up. Yes, the B1G academics are strong, and UTx's academics are strong, but that is one heck of geographical and cultural divide. Indeed, I think chances of Texas joining SEC. Pac, or ACC are all greater than B1G. (Just because Pac fell through once does not mean write it off forever. I'd argue the state of Texas is definitely big enough for a second SEC school. While ACC also has geographical problems, I'd argue that the cultures and/or settings of FSU, GIT, UNC, UVA would be better fits for UTx than any B1G school except Nebraska who left XII to get away from UTx.)

Austin is in the same time zone as the Majority of the B1G.
Geographically isn't really the issue.
The PAC is a bigger stretch. Tucson is the closest and they are pretty much an outlier. The Pack taking a New Mexico team plus Oklahoma would change that.
That gives the Pack a southwest branch, UofA,ASU,Utah,Colo,NM,Oklahoma,and Texas.
Austin is also the most Cultural Northern city in the state of Texas.
However their fans are closer to SEC fans, than the school itself .
I get the feeling there is acedemic superiority that could prevent the SEC.
By process of iliminatation the ACC has a shot especially since they are flexible.

 

[CoastAtlantic]

1)Iowa State is never getting an invite to The B1g. The BTN and the law of diminishing returns all but guarantee it, in fact there are better odds that East Carolina and ODU will accept invitations to The ACC first.

Ooh, I guess that eliminates the Irish from consideration.

2)Regardless of whatever deal The ACC might offer, it is beyond ridiculous to imagine Texas schlepping their Olympic Teams up and down the Eastern Seaboard. ND has to recruit nationally, UT doesn't. They would likely go independent in football ala BYU and stash their other sports in whatever remains of The Big 12/MWC/AAC Merger.

When you have a great collection of institutions and sports programs, plus the exposure that they get by getting their name out here, why not? I guess in Big Ten-land, the world really revolves around the Midwest.

3)How exactly does 18 work best for conferences? Unless you are planning on two divisions of nine schools each, which you aren't, it is a giant pain in the ass for scheduling.

Five in division and two each against the other two divisions, for a total of nine games a year. At least five games against regional or historical opponents, since the divisions are grouped geographically.

By the way, you haven't factored in that the pay TV model is changing as we speak. The last two Big Ten expansions has been with the current model. Whatever new model emerges I can assure that the emphasis would be on more regional match-ups. Regardless, moving slowly East was necessary on your part. I can understand that. But we're now solid and it's going to take a massive move to get the schools you might want. The other option is to stay put. I couldn't care less how you decide but you're not in any better position to dictate realignment than me. You should worry more about how the SEC is pwning your asses in not only football but in acquiring content. They could as well take every viable southern and plains school in sight and shut you guys out of the goodies. Then it'd be you who would have to decide whether to "lower your standards" and choose among the dregs of the G5 or accept it and stop whining about your football strength.

I don't hate the Big Ten. In fact, I wish the other four conferences schedule more Big Ten teams so that we can get a better OOC record. That's part of what makes college sports fun. But it's this arrogance from many fans that turns a lot of people off. Then again, that's something that both conferences share.

 

[TerryD]

Yes, the Big Ten was the best geographical fit for ND. In fact, it was the geographical center of the conference. With the 12 teams, there were 6 teams north of ND and 6 teams south of ND. There were 6 teams east of ND and 6 teams west of ND. But being in the middle of the big ten with the increases in conference scheduling was not a good place for ND. it would cut the recruiting opportunities in California, Texas and the southeast.

So yes, in one sense we may have sold our soul (not sure how), but in another sense, we passed on the most money for the long term benefit of the football program.

Right. The Big Ten has been the best geographical fit for ND since about 1913. How many years since then has ND been a member of the Big Ten??

 

[Irishfan]

Right. The Big Ten has been the best geographical fit for ND since about 1913. How many years since then has ND been a member of the Big Ten??

My point being that geography is not now nor has it been for a long time a consideration in determining which conference (if any) that ND was interested in joining.

I'm not sure what you thought I was trying to say, but I'm pretty sure you were wrong.

 

[TerryD]

My point being that geography is not now nor has it been for a long time a consideration in determining which conference (if any) that ND was interested in joining.

I'm not sure what you thought I was trying to say, but I'm pretty sure you were wrong.

Lol, sorry. I was agreeing with you on the point that geography is irrelevant regarding ND. I didn't do a good job of articulating that, sorry.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

From what I've heard, Austin is a cultural divide from... Texas.

Remember when Senator Jesse Helms wanted to build a fence around UNC Chapel Hill after calling it the 'University of N*** and Communists?' With all of the transplants from the Northeast and Midwest over the last 20 years, bet he wishes now that a fence was built around all of RTP. Many in Texas feel the same about Austin.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

Lol, sorry. I was agreeing with you on the point that geography is irrelevant regarding ND. I didn't do a good job of articulating that, sorry.

Politics aside, ND has always viewed (and scheduled) itself as a 'national' brand and not regional, thus they have never wanted to be part of the B1G, which has historically been a Midwest conference. Should the football playoff system force ND to join a conference, I believe ND will go for the conference that provides them with the best offer and the one that provides ND with the most national exposure.

 

[Seaa Blue]

thus they have never wanted to be part of the B1G, which has historically been a Midwest conference..

Big Ten ===== ===== Notre Dame

Bridge burned. As long as the current ADs at Michigan and Notre Dame are in place an NCAA mandate would need to happen for any type of playoff path to happen though the Big Ten.

But I digress. "Never" is too strong of a word there. The sensible people at ND wanted in back in 1999 (and probably in 1899 and 1949) as well. And for those that would laugh, then why all the whining and history re-writes and discussion board crusades coming out of ND for over a century now?

And yes of course I'm intentionally trolling TerryD here...

 

[Irishfan]

Were there actually people at ND who were looking to join the Big Ten in 1999? I wonder why it never happened.

 

[Seaa Blue]

Were there actually people at ND who were looking to join the Big Ten in 1999? I wonder why it never happened.

Wikipedia now has this: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Ten_Conference)

Following the addition of previously independent Penn State, efforts were made to encourage the University of Notre Dame, the last remaining non-service academy independent, to join the league. Early in the 20th century, Notre Dame briefly considered official entry into the Big Ten but chose instead to retain its independent status.[69] However, in 1999, both Notre Dame and the Big Ten entered into private negotiations concerning a possible membership that would include Notre Dame. Although the Notre Dame faculty senate endorsed the idea with a near unanimous vote, the ND board of trustees chairman TerryD decided against joining the conference and Notre Dame ultimately withdrew from negotiations.

 

[TerryD]

Wikipedia now has this: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Ten_Conference)

Lol, I am one powerful mofo.

 

[CTGoonie]

@slmandel: The year-to-year volatility of ND's schedule, which is essentially 12 non-conf. opponents, could cause a lot of frustration in playoff era.

 

[Kolumbo]

@slmandel: The year-to-year volatility of ND's schedule, which is essentially 12 non-conf. opponents, could cause a lot of frustration in playoff era.

It's not "essentially" 12 non-conference opponents. It is 12 non-conference opponents.