Bye, bye, Bobby

[60'sfan]

With the humiliating loss to the A's last night coupled with six straight losses to the California Angels, I think the die is cast for Bobby Valentine. I still think that he was given a team with very little chance to make the playoffs but they have definitely not over-achieved or even met expectations. I expect to see a lot of changes over the winter but barring a miracle we will not see the playoffs for at least a couple of years. Perhaps the Dan Duquette strategy of finding an ace pitcher (Pedro) and a great hitter (Manny) and building around them would be the smart way to go. I could get excited about Felix Hernandez and Josh Hamilton with Mike Sciocio or John Farrell calling the shots. A fella can dream can't he?

 

[zyron]

With the humiliating loss to the A's last night coupled with six straight losses to the California Angels, I think the die is cast for Bobby Valentine. I still think that he was given a team with very little chance to make the playoffs but they have definitely not over-achieved or even met expectations. I expect to see a lot of changes over the winter but barring a miracle we will not see the playoffs for at least a couple of years. Perhaps the Dan Duquette strategy of finding an ace pitcher (Pedro) and a great hitter (Manny) and building around them would be the smart way to go. I could get excited about Felix Hernandez and Josh Hamilton with Mike Sciocio or John Farrell calling the shots. A fella can dream can't he?

Look at Oakland's lineup and pitching staff compared to what Boston's was before everyone was traded. In a year when they added an extra wild card. Boston fans can't say now that the team was doomed from the beginning.

Also Hamilton has to not sign with teams like New York or Boston. He has had relapses in Texas, a big media city is not what he needs. As good as he is I would not want the Yankees to sign him.

 

[Danzz]

With the humiliating loss to the A's last night coupled with six straight losses to the California Angels, I think the die is cast for Bobby Valentine. I still think that he was given a team with very little chance to make the playoffs but they have definitely not over-achieved or even met expectations. I expect to see a lot of changes over the winter but barring a miracle we will not see the playoffs for at least a couple of years. Perhaps the Dan Duquette strategy of finding an ace pitcher (Pedro) and a great hitter (Manny) and building around them would be the smart way to go. I could get excited about Felix Hernandez and Josh Hamilton with Mike Sciocio or John Farrell calling the shots. A fella can dream can't he?

The Sox are just awful and it is pretty clear that they gave up. Gonzalez was the hitter they could have built around and he would probably still be in Boston were it not for the Crawford and Lackey disasters. Cody Ross is fast becoming a defensive disaster in RF.
Bobby was handed an outstanding team; at least on paper. The Sox are 2nd in the AL in runs but there is no way they were going to make the playoffs with Lester and Beckett having terrible years. These guys aren't going to play for Valentine and Bobby appears to be going through the motions similar to Ditka with the Saints in the 90's.

 

[mauconnfan]

Bobby was handed a pretty decent team on paper maybe but injuries and a** holes made it an impossible team for a new manager. Beckett and Lackey somehow brought Lester with them on the AH Train beginning last year and now it's up to Lester to find his own way, not on the manager. AGon, while a great player, isn't all that good a guy in the clubhouse according to many so that was a difficult situation as well and Pedroia obviously can't pick up the clubhouse pieces as proven with his behind the doors meeting earlier.

Bobby was left with a thole and that's how it turned out. He deserves to try to pull it together when they get rid of the remaining scrap!

 

[Waquoit]

The wheels have fallen off and Bobby V. won't be back. It's not all his fault and he did some good things, but that's irrelevent. I don't have any faith in the front office. Ben has gotten some kudos for the LA deal, but like I said before the easiest thing to do is trade your best player. Now what? Is there a plan? They fired the best manager in the game last year and this year they sold out the new guy the first sign of trouble. And they've destroyed Liverpool for good measure. What's next?

 

[Danzz]

Bobby was handed a pretty decent team on paper maybe but injuries and a** holes made it an impossible team for a new manager. Beckett and Lackey somehow brought Lester with them on the AH Train beginning last year and now it's up to Lester to find his own way, not on the manager. AGon, while a great player, isn't all that good a guy in the clubhouse according to many so that was a difficult situation as well and Pedroia obviously can't pick up the clubhouse pieces as proven with his behind the doors meeting earlier.

Bobby was left with a thole and that's how it turned out. He deserves to try to pull it together when they get rid of the remaining scrap!

Actually AGon is a very good teammate and was well liked and respected in SD and that is directly from a current SD player. This whole beer and chicken thing was overdone IMO and had little if anything to do with the collapse last season. It hasn't stopped the Boston talk show idiots from hammering away at it for over a year.Injuries played a part but the big reason was the collapse of the starting pitching and that problem continued this year.Just like hitting is contagious, minor problems become huge problems when you are losing and no team is doing a better job at losing right now as the Sox.
Valentine is not the reason the Sox have gone over the cliff but he really looks whipped and disinterested.It is hard to manage a team that can't get anybody out.

 

[60'sfan]

Bobby was handed a pretty decent team on paper maybe but injuries and a** holes made it an impossible team for a new manager. Beckett and Lackey somehow brought Lester with them on the AH Train beginning last year and now it's up to Lester to find his own way, not on the manager. AGon, while a great player, isn't all that good a guy in the clubhouse according to many so that was a difficult situation as well and Pedroia obviously can't pick up the clubhouse pieces as proven with his behind the doors meeting earlier.

Bobby was left with a thole and that's how it turned out. He deserves to try to pull it together when they get rid of the remaining scrap!

I agree with most of what you said but I think the problem with Agon was not the things he did but the things he didn't do. He is definitely not a leader and you always would like your star to be a leader. He does not hustle and that can affect the whole team. And Danzz, he didn't hustle with the Padres either.
Whether Bobby deserves a chance to pull it together or not doesn't matter. He will not survive the winter.
I agree with Danzz, the pitching was terrible. The question remains....why? IMHO it was the two major changes that took place last winter, they brought in a new pitching coach (who did not get along with the manager) and they did not keep Jason Varitek with the team. They should have found a place for him even if he wasn't a player.

 

[Danzz]

I agree with most of what you said but I think the problem with Agon was not the things he did but the things he didn't do. He is definitely not a leader and you always would like your star to be a leader. He does not hustle and that can affect the whole team. And Danzz, he didn't hustle with the Padres either.
Whether Bobby deserves a chance to pull it together or not doesn't matter. He will not survive the winter.
I agree with Danzz, the pitching was terrible. The question remains....why? IMHO it was the two major changes that took place last winter, they brought in a new pitching coach (who did not get along with the manager) and they did not keep Jason Varitek with the team. They should have found a place for him even if he wasn't a player.

Beckett has lost about 6-7 MPH off his fastball and no pitching coach is going to change that. Lester lost some control but still has good velocity so at least he he has something to work with. Beckett does not.Beckett is going to have to sharpen up his breaking pitches to become effective again because the days are over when he could punch out hitters with 97 MPH high heat.
I agree on Gonzalez not being a team leader. He is a quiet almost shy player who goes about his business but nobody in San Diego ever accused him of being lazy. He never balked at playing RF so Ortiz could play against NL teams.I'm sorry to see him go. He was leading the majors in RISP hits and RBIs and that won't be replaced .

 

[Deepster]

The wheels have fallen off and Bobby V. won't be back. It's not all his fault and he did some good things, but that's irrelevent.

Like what?

 

[Waquoit]

Like what?

Integrated the new and younger players into the lineup. Had the team near the top of the league in run production despite starting the year without his top four outfielders. Cobbled together a bullpen out of nothing. Bobby V. gave you the best Mets season you've had since those cokeheads won it all. Why the hate?

 

[60'sfan]

Beckett has lost about 6-7 MPH off his fastball and no pitching coach is going to change that. Lester lost some control but still has good velocity so at least he he has something to work with. Beckett does not.Beckett is going to have to sharpen up his breaking pitches to become effective again because the days are over when he could punch out hitters with 97 MPH high heat.
I agree on Gonzalez not being a team leader. He is a quiet almost shy player who goes about his business but nobody in San Diego ever accused him of being lazy. He never balked at playing RF so Ortiz could play against NL teams.I'm sorry to see him go. He was leading the majors in RISP hits and RBIs and that won't be replaced .

I don't want to nit-pick on this but I know some Padre season ticket holders who were glad to see Adrian go. They claimed that he never went from first to third on a single to right and never scored from second on a single. He caught everything he could reach but had no range at all. They were probably being too critical. I, for one, was happy when he was traded to the Sox and sad when he was traded away. He was our answer for Teixeira. Now we have James Loney???

 

[mauconnfan]

Danzz Beckett may have struck a few guys out with a 97MPH heater but that would be very few....he was a 94-95 guy and can still get there if he quits eating and wants to.....he's out of shape and that's easy to see......maybe he can't but at 91-92 he's pnly a few pounds from what I can see from gaining most of it and being effective again......and thank you 60's for the facts on Adrian....wasn't really respected as some may believe frm what I read and heard.........

 

[60'sfan]

Danzz Beckett may have struck a few guys out with a 97MPH heater but that would be very few....he was a 94-95 guy and can still get there if he quits eating and wants to.....he's out of shape and that's easy to see......maybe he can't but at 91-92 he's pnly a few pounds from what I can see from gaining most of it and being effective again......and thank you 60's for the facts on Adrian....wasn't really respected as some may believe frm what I read and heard.........

I agree with you on Beckett. I think he stopped working out when he got the big contract. He's too young to have lost his fastball. If he gets in the gym over the winter, works on arm strenght and drops about 25 pounds, he is capable of winning 15+ with the Dodgers. Unfortunately, he would never do that with the Sox.
Beckett and A.J. Burnett are similar in they have had a pattern of good year, bad year over their careers.

 

[Danzz]

I'm not buying the conditioning issue. You don't lose velocity by adding a few pounds; at least not 4-5 MPH. He isn't capable of winning anywhere near 15 games with the Dodgers unless he becomes a different type of pitcher and giving up chicken wings and mozzarella sticks isn't going to do it.It could be a mechanics issue but it is much more likely that his arm/shoulder/legs are beginning to break down. He could have some sort minor injury.There is no such thing as being too young to lose your fastball and it doesn't take a whole lot to for it to happen. His fastball is still 89-91 which is fine if you can locate it and get movement. He isn't able to do either. There are plenty of power pitchers who started to lose it before Beckett's age (32).
I'm not going to list overweight power pitchers because you know who they are and there are many.
Beckett is an easy target because he made himself one. He can be effective in the future but he'll never be the power pitcher he was unless his loss of velocity is due to an injury.

 

[mauconnfan]

Legs!! Thats the power and he's not in shape........MPH isn't the arm always it's the legs, he's a dog and never ready for the season......could be wrong but that's what i see. Just be glad he's not on your staff no matter what the deal is!!

 

[60'sfan]

I'm not buying the conditioning issue. You don't lose velocity by adding a few pounds; at least not 4-5 MPH. He isn't capable of winning anywhere near 15 games with the Dodgers unless he becomes a different type of pitcher and giving up chicken wings and mozzarella sticks isn't going to do it.It could be a mechanics issue but it is much more likely that his arm/shoulder/legs are beginning to break down. He could have some sort minor injury.There is no such thing as being too young to lose your fastball and it doesn't take a whole lot to for it to happen. His fastball is still 89-91 which is fine if you can locate it and get movement. He isn't able to do either. There are plenty of power pitchers who started to lose it before Beckett's age (32).
I'm not going to list overweight power pitchers because you know who they are and there are many.
Beckett is an easy target because he made himself one. He can be effective in the future but he'll never be the power pitcher he was unless his loss of velocity is due to an injury.

The weight is not the reason it is a symptom. If you go back and look at Beckett's career, he alternates between good years and bad years. He has a good year, he takes it easy in the off-season. He has a bad year, he gets back in shape. Of course with his current contract, he may decide he doesn't need to get back into shape.
And I don't agree, he did not lose 4 to 5 MPH off his fastball. More like 2 to 3. At best his fastball averaged out around 94. He could crank it up to 97 when he had to, but I don't know of too many starters who average out at 97.

 

[Danzz]

The weight is not the reason it is a symptom. If you go back and look at Beckett's career, he alternates between good years and bad years. He has a good year, he takes it easy in the off-season. He has a bad year, he gets back in shape. Of course with his current contract, he may decide he doesn't need to get back into shape.
And I don't agree, he did not lose 4 to 5 MPH off his fastball. More like 2 to 3. At best his fastball averaged out around 94. He could crank it up to 97 when he had to, but I don't know of too many starters who average out at 97.

There is truth to what you say except that this makes 2 bad years in a row. Mau is right about the legs creating power but there is one thing all pitchers have to do between starts: run. No way for Beckett to get away with dogging it on the running because he has to do it with the other pitchers in front of his teammates. He wouldn't be able to throw 100+ pitches if his legs were not in shape and in Beckett's case he has sometimes has thrown 100+ pitches in 45 minutes.I would imagine that the Sox conditioning coach has a lot to say about his program and reports to the manager.
However, he does look softer this season. Anyway, he isn't our problem anymore. On the MPH lost lets agree on 3-4 .

 

[60'sfan]

There is truth to what you say except that this makes 2 bad years in a row. .

Actually Beckett, except for the month of September, had a pretty good year in 2011. 13-7 2.89 ERA. Prior to September, he was in the discussion for the Cy Young award. It was then that the chicken and beer took its toll.