Berry Tramel: Analyzing the strengths and weaknesses of Big 12 expansion candidates

[DarthGrumpy]

T

I think everyone... including those on this board... knows that a football rivalry game, among similar football rivals, is always, always.... ALWAYS... played each and every year. There is no football " rivals " and there is no football " rivalry " absent that most fundamental and most essential component. It is the very essence of " parsing words " to deduce from this press release that BC considers Holy Cross their future football " rival ". It says no such thing. Furthermore, if there was a mutual intent for these 2 Catholic, Private Universities to make one another their future " football rivals ", the two would have agreed to play each other each and every season moving forward. Holy Cross and BC were indeed once football " rivals " and there was indeed an annual game football" rivalry", played as each school's last football game of each season. But nobody outside of this board believes that BC and Holy Cross agreeing to a future 2 game football series, constitutes a football rivalry game. Thats just silly, and we all know it deep down ( ha! ha! )... Syracuse and BC however will become " rivals " and an annual " football rivalry game " will take place each and every season..... and finally, you have to admit that Uconn has egg on its face nationally by calling for a" football rivalry"with a " rival " school that ... get ready for this...does not want to be Uconn's football " rival ", and does not think of itself as Uconn's football " rival ". ( haha!) Believe me, those outside of Connecticut and around the country, think this was FAR funnier.

To summarize above, which would make Chris Christie proud, you are smarter than BC's AD and that the guy doesn't understand the English language all that well. That's fine and Huskies fan can relate. Afterall, 99.9% of UConn fans believe they are smarter than our last AD, Jeff Hathaway.

 

[Yawkey Way]

T

To summarize above, which would make Chris Christie proud, you are smarter than BC's AD and that the guy doesn't understand the English language all that well. That's fine and Huskies fan can relate. Afterall, 99.9% of UConn fans believe they are smarter than our last AD, Jeff Hathaway.

I think these ( your words ) " 99.9% of Uconn fans believe that they are smarter than the last Uconn AD, Jeff Hathaway " are probably right . In a critical time of league realignments, Hathaway conducted a " Nationwide " Coaching search to replace Randy Edsall, and came up with a Head Coach dinosaur ( Pasqualoni) that wasn't even good enough for Syracuse anymore, having been canned there. That hire of PP by Hathaway was pretty stupid in retrospect, no ?

 

[CL82]

T

To summarize above, which would make Chris Christie proud, you are smarter than BC's AD and that the guy doesn't understand the English language all that well. That's fine and Huskies fan can relate. Afterall, 99.9% of UConn fans believe they are smarter than our last AD, Jeff Hathaway.

Or feel that they wouldn't have done worse. An understandable sentiment given that he dug much of the hole that we're in.

 

[SAMCRO]

You are right that if Uconn turns around its football program and, for example, wins the AAC at some point in the future, they will probably get an invite to a P5 Conference .

If winning 2 BE football championships (how many did BC win?) and going to a BCS bowl didn't garner UConn a P5 invite, then winning the AAC isn't going to be a difference maker in a P5's decision to invite UConn. It will be about geography/markets and providing winter content for a conference network.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

If winning 2 BE football championships (how many did BC win?) and going to a BCS bowl didn't garner UConn a P5 invite, then winning the AAC isn't going to be a difference maker in a P5's decision to invite UConn. It will be about geography/markets and providing winter content for a conference network.

Having decent spring content - Baseball and Lax (hopefully) with both basketball teams playing into early April should also help.

 

[Yawkey Way]

If winning 2 BE football championships (how many did BC win?) .

Uconn won 1 more BE Football Championships than BC ( 2007, 2010 ), but as I'm sure you are aware BC ( which won the BE Football Championship in 2004 ) had left the BE in 2005, along with Miami, Virginia Tech. ( Uconn is 0-13-1 vs. BC in football )

 

[uconnbill]

Be careful what you write. Thoughtful reason is apparently not wanted here. Many want to remain in their fantasy land.

And you have the pulse of the world? You are just another fan of someone besides UConn and want to see them down and not competing against your school.

I will add this. When I go down south, which is often. People know about UConn and it's basketball program, both men and women. I know in South Carolina they still are smarting over that lost to those Yankees up north.

 

[Yawkey Way]

Having decent spring content - Baseball and Lax (hopefully) with both basketball teams playing into early April should also help.

If only it was so. Football drives the realignments. I do not accept Samcros fatalistic position that if Uconn Football wins the AAC, that it will not get a P5 League invite. I believe it would.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

Uconn won 1 more BE Football Championships than BC ( 2007, 2010 ), but as I'm sure you are aware BC ( which won the BE Football Championship in 2004 ) had left the BE in 2005, along with Miami, Virginia Tech. ( UConn is 0-13-1 vs. BC in football )

UConn is 0-4 against BC since UConn made the jump to D1 football and the first loss (200), UConn was not yet at full D1 scholarship levels. No legitimate D1 football team should take pride in beating-up on a lower division school.

BC was a founding member of the Big East Football and played for 13 seasons (1993 through 2005) and won 1 Big E football title (co-champion) during that time and went to 0 BCS Bowl games. UConn joined Big E football in 2004 (upgraded to D1 in 2000) and thus played 9 seasons of Big E football winning 2 titles (both co-champions) and went to 1 BCS Bowl Game. Sorry, I am just don's see BC's football superiority over UConn.

 

[uconndogs]

If only it was so. Football drives the realignments. I do not accept Samcros fatalistic position that if Uconn Football wins the AAC, that it will not get a P5 League invite. I believe it would.

Performance on the field is only relevant to CR to the extent it drives attendance and ratings. UCONN's winning or losing the AAC is only relevant in that context. If on field performance were all that relevant UCONN would have been selected to the ACC well before Syracuse and Pitt were, given that UCONN football was performing at a much higher level than those programs were at the time of their selection. Hell, when Louisville was selected UCONN beat them at Louisville (the season Louisville beat the snot out of Florida in their bowl).

CR comes down to dollars and relationships and a little luck.

Football does drive the bus, but basketball does matter and will eventually tip UCONN into the BiG or ACC in my opinion once the sick patient that is football is on the mend. Once that happens I like UCONN's chances in the region, because history shows that on a level playing field UCONN will eventually dominate. Just the way it is........

 

[Yawkey Way]

Sorry, I am just don's see BC's football superiority over UConn.

You don't have to apolgize for giving your opinion, imo

BC Basketball has been terrible of late vs. Uconn basketball... actually going back many years vs. Uconn Basketball. Yet BC has won some basketball games vs. Uconn . Because BC has, I would not state that " I don't see Uconn's Basketball as basketball superiority over that of BC Basketball ". That would be more fanatical, than objective. Likewise, BC started major college football much earlier than Uconn. Thats an asset of vision for BC compared with Uconn football, not a liability. BC dominates College Football in N.E. and has for over 4 decades now, longer than Uconn's basketball has dominated that sport in N.E. BC football is superior to that of Uconn football in N.E, because BC football is 13-0-1 vs. Uconn football, and would most likely beat them again if the two programs played football this year, too. BC has beaten all comers in N.E. for decades, and thats principally why it can objectively be considered the dominant college football program in a N.E region not known for its college football quality of recruited football talents compared to other warmer climate regions . That said, we both are entitled to our anapologetic opinions on this, and you expressed yours without rancor or profanity, and thats appreciated.

 

[uconndogs]

Comparing BC football to UCONN basketball is laughable. Two entirely different levels of success.

 

[buddy]

You don't have to apolgize for giving your opinion, imo

BC Basketball has been terrible of late vs. Uconn basketball... actually going back many years vs. Uconn Basketball. Yet BC has won some basketball games vs. Uconn . Because BC has, I would not state that " I don't see Uconn's Basketball as basketball superiority over that of BC Basketball ". That would be more fanatical, than objective. Likewise, BC started major college football much earlier than Uconn. Thats an asset of vision for BC compared with Uconn football, not a liability. BC dominates College Football in N.E. and has for over 4 decades now, longer than Uconn's basketball has dominated that sport in N.E. BC football is superior to that of Uconn football in N.E, because BC football is 13-0-1 vs. Uconn football, and would most likely beat them easily if the two programs played football this year, too. BC has beaten all comers in N.E. for decades, and thats principally why it can objectively be considered the dominant collrge football progam in a N.E region not known for its college football quality of recruited football talents compared to other warmer climate regions . That said, we both are entitled to our anapologetic opinions on this, and you expressed yours without rancor or profanity, and thats appreciated.

BC many years ago recognized that once UConn does get going, it will eclipse BC in all aspects. That has always been the fear of BC and that is why they left the BE for the ACC. They thought that by getting away from UConn the could maintain their air of superiority. BC's blocking of UConn from getting to a P5 conference has temporarily delayed that eventuality, partially due to short sightedness of the part of previous UConn administration as well as State Government. Now things have changed. UConn academics are skyrocketing. Athletics continue to win, although football has fallen on hard times, it is hard to believe it will not bounce back with vigor.
Once UConn gets to a P5, any P5, and it will happen, it will only be a matter of time before BC takes a back seat for good in the Northeast at least, and they know this. If UConn's B1G dream comes true, I suspect BC and some of it's ACC brethren will basically fade in to obscurity, which they were hoping would happen to UConn. The way I see it, addition of UConn to ACC will only strengthen it and diminuate the effect of the B1G in the northeast. Addition of UConn to B1G will end any influence the ACC has north of the Mason Dixon line, leaving Cuse and BC as outliers, and give the B1G the presence it needs here. UConn and Rutgers together in a conference in the NY metro area would win hands down.

 

[CL82]

Comparing BC football to UCONN basketball is laughable. Two entirely different levels of success.

Or is it comparing one level of mediocrity to a level of phenomenal success?

 

[DarthGrumpy]

You don't have to apolgize for giving your opinion, imo

BC Basketball has been terrible of late vs. Uconn basketball... actually going back many years vs. Uconn Basketball. Yet BC has won some basketball games vs. Uconn . Because BC has, I would not state that " I don't see Uconn's Basketball as basketball superiority over that of BC Basketball ". That would be more fanatical, than objective. Likewise, BC started major college football much earlier than Uconn. Thats an asset of vision for BC compared with Uconn football, not a liability. BC dominates College Football in N.E. and has for over 4 decades now, longer than Uconn's basketball has dominated that sport in N.E. BC football is superior to that of Uconn football in N.E, because BC football is 13-0-1 vs. Uconn football, and would most likely beat them again if the two programs played football this year, too. BC has beaten all comers in N.E. for decades, and that's principally why it can objectively be considered the dominant college football program in a N.E region not known for its college football quality of recruited football talents compared to other warmer climate regions . That said, we both are entitled to our anapologetic opinions on this, and you expressed yours without rancor or profanity, and that's appreciated.

Being dominant in something means winning consistently against the best competition. Dominant teams do not brag about beating 'all comers' in a region that between the late 1960's and the early 2000's had no other football programs playing at the same level. Dominant teams do not send out a press release that reads like the second coming of the Iron Bowl touting a pair of games against a program that has not played at BC's level in 50 years. BC does not dominate New England football. BC just happened to be the only game in town for the better part of half a century and wants to keep it that way.

Basically, the decision by the Ivy league to downgrade football in the 1950's decimated New England college football leaving just BC and HC playing at the highest level and very soon after, just BC. In other regions where private universities were not prevalent, state universities flourish and grew large enough to support very strong football programs as a replacement to the Ivy league, with exceptions like ND & USC of course. That was not the case in New England where the Ivy's were dominate, even after they left the gridiron, and the state universities like UConn, UMass, etc. languished. BC tried; but, was not able to fill this void on its own. How else can one explain that today, 50 years since the Ivy league took a step down, the Yale Bowl at 61,500 is still the largest college football stadium in New Enland (ignoring UMass renting Gillette, a pro stadium) followed by BC at just 44,500 with UConn's Rent just behind at 40K. Compare that to Penn St. who can arguably claim the title as the most dominant team in Northeast College football in the modern era 2 consensus and 5 shared national titles (Princeton, Yale, Harvard, & Pitt all have more; but from decades earlier) and a 107K stadium.

Heck if TV ratings translate into fan support, BC's support is isolated to inside the Rte 128 belt and even then, they only get a maximum of 10% to 15%. In Hartford, UConn gets about 60%. BC does not even in the Top 3 in Providence (Florida, Ohio St & ND are all around 8%). Ditto for Manchester NH & Portland ME. How can BC claim to be New England's football team with those numbers?

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/10/03/upshot/ncaa-football-map.html

BC has had good teams from time to time, see the Flutie and Hasseback teams, and made a decision to stick with college football, which in hindsight, has proven to be a very smart decision. BC is also historically and currently a better team than UConn. But, it is not the dominant football program in New England as there is none.

All of this is ironic, too. The one sport that BC can claim to being a major force with 5 NCAA championships, consistent playoff contenders, and top 10 attendance year after year is hockey. BC makes no claim to be New England's team, not with Boston U, who has 5 titles of their own just a few miles down Commonwealth Avenue along with a collection of other strong teams in the region. Still they thrive because BC in hockey has recognized that strong, local rivalries make them better and improve the sport overall. They same may have been possible with football and UConn's entry into D1 football. Sadly, and while BC shared a majority of the blame, some does fall on UConn's shoulders, too, it has not been the case.

 

[Yawkey Way]

BC many years ago recognized that once UConn does get going, it will eclipse BC in all aspects. That has always been the fear of BC and that is why they left the BE for the ACC.

Thats certainly one way to look at it. That BC joined the ACC because of Uconn.

Another way to look at it, is that BC voted for Uconn's football program admittance to the BE ( which BC did ), but made it clear to all that BE was basketball centric ( which it was ) and could not afford to lose Miami, or the dominos would fall, and the BE football oriented schools would leave. Once Miami bolted the BE, BC saw the BE collapsing, and petitioned the ACC to accept them. Virginia politics ensued and VT came in, but shortly thereafter BC was invited. BC going to the ACC thus seems unrelated to me what was happening in Storrs. Ironically, later Syracuse, Uconn and all the other remaining BE schools did what BC had done earlier... once the BE lost Miami.

As for BC not wanting to play Uconn in football anymore. ( or at present ) my assessment of this is that BC has concluded that they can gain more from not playing Uconn in football, than playing them in football. Whether this is a sound strategy or not is unclear... however, BC might say that the results of not playing Uconn in football has certainly not helped Uconn football in any measureable way, and it has seemingly not hurt BC Football in any observable, measureable way. So from BC's standpoint ( and I don't speak for them, nor know for sure what their thinking is there ) the strategy seems to be working.

 

[uconndogs]

Or is it comparing one level of mediocrity to a level of phenomenal success?

BC's legacy is caste in the shadow coming from Cambridge.

Go to a BC student tour. There are constant comparisons to Harvard as it relates to BC's admissions. Is BC a fine academic institution? Of course it is. Is it Harvard? Not at all. In fairness, it's mission is different, or should be, but you make constant comparisons like that when you are insecure, when you are not sure who you are, when you leadership is not well grounded.

BC athletics are not ND or UCONN. And in comparison to UCONN they can tout only better conference affiliation...for now anyway. Meaningful success - championships, national championships, multiple national championships? No.

One would constantly post on a visiting board making the same ad nauseum points because they are desperately trying to support the mediocre as something significantly more than what it actually is. Much like BC academics and athletics.

 

[Yawkey Way]

BC's legacy is caste in the shadow coming from Cambridge.

Go to a BC student tour. There are constant comparisons to Harvard as it relates to BC's admissions. Is BC a fine academic institution? Of course it is. Is it Harvard? Not at all. I

.

Yes, I hear you, but I really don't care about any of that academic talk, as I did not attend, BC, Harvard, Uconn, or ND, and so forth. So I let others go on with one another when the topic drifts into what the academics are and what the academics are of their student -athletes. I know BC Alums are proud of their athletes overall graduation rates, and puff their chests out with that ( I probably would too If I went there ), but frankly I don't care about the academics, nor the graduation rates of these football, basketball schools.. but I do know its important to others, so they are free to have those Academic standings, and College grad rates, etc for their athletes discussions among themelves at Harvard, Uconn, BC, ND, and so forth. But basically, that all disinterests to me when we are discussing college football play.

 

[Yawkey Way]

history shows that on a level playing field UCONN will eventually dominate. Just the way it is...

Yes, but history further teaches us a more compelling lesson, imo.... ie, there is rarely any level playing field created in most things to find out that scenario or not. Otherwise we could say that if Greece was on a similar economic playing field as Germany, Greece would dominate. And countless other examples, where there is no such " level playing field " to future determine these things. Is Umass football on the same " level playing field "as Uconn football ? No, I don't think so. Is that Uconn's fault ? No, I don't think so. The best lessons we learn are to control the things we can control to enable us to better position ourselves... whether its in football, or careers, or retirement, or whatever. This notion of a " level playing field" rarely exists in most things in life. Its... " just the way it is ".

 

[uconndogs]

Well, it's of interest to me Yawkey, and I see a link. Given that my post was a response to someone else and not you, the fact that my post "disinterests" you.........well..........

 

[whaler11]

Yawkey Way here.

HFD not.

Your somewhat irregular reminder...

 

[Yawkey Way]

Being dominant in

Basically, the decision by the Ivy league to downgrade football in the 1950's decimated New England college football leaving just BC and HC playing at the highest level and very soon after, just BC.

Ok... so BC did not decide to downgrade as the Ivies decided, and Holy Cross decided. Its a absurd to think that BC is responsible for schools deciding to downgrade or upgrade. Thats these school choices. If these decisions ( they did not ask BC ) has BC remain as the dominant college football program in N.E for the last half century., thats hardly BC's fault if we are clear thinking and objective about this, it would seem to me.

 

[uconndogs]

Yes, but history further teaches us a more compelling lesson, imo.... ie, there is rarely any level playing field created in most things to find out that scenario or not. Otherwise we could say that if Greece was on a similar economic playing field as Germany, Greece would dominate. And countless other examples, where there is no such " level playing field " to future determine these things. Is Umass football on the same " level playing field "as Uconn football ? No, I don't think so. Is that Uconn's fault ? No, I don't think so. The best lessons we learn are to control the things we can control to enable us to better position ourselves... whether its in football, or careers, or retirement, or whatever. This notion of a " level playing field" rarely exists in most things in life. Its... " just the way it is ".

Yawkey must never be banned from this site......never.....every.

He's the only poster who has ever offered both lessons in economics and, yes, life itself, in a single incomprehensible post.

Yawkey you have taken it to another level. I would love to continue reading your pontifications, but I can think of only about 1,000,000 things more productive and useful, so you will excuse me.

 

[Yawkey Way]

Yawkey must never be banned from this site.never.....every.

He's the only poster who has ever offered both lessons in economics and, yes, life itself, in a single incomprehensible post.

Yawkey you have taken it to another level. I would love to continue reading your pontifications, but I can think of only about 1,000,000 things more productive and useful, so you will excuse me.

I do know that it's one thing to disagree with a posters comments, but quite another to find the comments as" incomprehensible" as that can be most frustrating. So I apologize if my comments made not much sense to you and we're incomprehensible.
I have encountered this on occasion before, and the comments made did not make much sense to be. It can be frustrating when a comment makes little senseI would just recommend ignoring it and just chalk it up to the usual things things found on most any message board where there are lots of levels of posters and commentary made.

 

[buddy]

Thats certainly one way to look at it. That BC joined the ACC because of Uconn.

Another way to look at it, is that BC voted for Uconn's football program admittance to the BE ( which BC did ), but made it clear to all that BE was basketball centric ( which it was ) and could not afford to lose Miami, or the dominos would fall, and the BE football oriented schools would leave. Once Miami bolted the BE, BC saw the BE collapsing, and petitioned the ACC to accept them. Virginia politics ensued and VT came in, but shortly thereafter BC was invited. BC going to the ACC thus seems unrelated to me what was happening in Storrs. Ironically, later Syracuse, Uconn and all the other remaining BE schools did what BC had done earlier... once the BE lost Miami.

As for BC not wanting to play Uconn in football anymore. ( or at present ) my assessment of this is that BC has concluded that they can gain more from not playing Uconn in football, than playing them in football. Whether this is a sound strategy or not is unclear... however, BC might say that the results of not playing Uconn in football has certainly not helped Uconn football in any measureable way, and it has seemingly not hurt BC Football in any observable, measureable way. So from BC's standpoint ( and I don't speak for them, nor know for sure what their thinking is there ) the strategy seems to be working.

BC has always been afraid of UConn's potential and continues to be afraid of UConn. The emergence of UConn at this time to a P5 will affect BC's standing in New England at a minimum. Once UConn gets to P5, and if it is not the ACC, then it will be bye bye BC in New England especially if UConn gets into the B1G. If UConn were to go to the same conference as BC, then a new rivalry may be created, especially given the bad blood between these two institutions. BC should have been actively lobbying for UConn to the ACC to save itself. That's the irony of this situation. GDF will go down in history as bad for both schools in the long run.
As far as the second paragraph of your reply, which really had nothing to do with my response, I personally feel that if UConn is not in the same conference as BC, there should be no athletic competition between these two schools. They are hockey east partners, so that is fine. OOC games are not necessary and won't benefit either institution at this time, so on that I agree. It doesn't benefit BC to play UConn in football right now, and it doesn't benefit UConn to play BC in basketball at this time.